Wander Woman: A Travel Podcast

The More the Merrier?

• Phoebe Smith • Season 2 • Episode 1

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The invite came in bright red letters from Intrepid Travel: Sabah Adventure – climb Mt Kinabalu and head into the jungle to find Borneo’s iconic wildlife. It promised to be a trip to rival all other trips. The catch? It was a group trip. That would mean Phoebe – an avid solo traveller – would have to share her experience (not to mention bedroom) with others. How would it effect the trip?  There was only one way to find out...

Also coming up: 

  • Learn how to survive room sharing on your adventures with our regular Travel Hack of the Month; 
  • Discover the 10 best places in the world where you can travel solo;­
  • Hear from climber and adventurer Leo Houlding about why 'big pointy mountains' make for the most memorable holidays - even with kids
  • Which are best - walking boots or shoes? We find out...
  •  Hear from the inspiring Matricia Bauer, an Indigenous guide in Jasper and owner of Warrior Women
  • Wander Woman of the Month - Jemima Anne Morrell - the first modern tourist in 1832

Come wander with her…

#WanderWomanWednesday

Contact Wander Woman

www.Phoebe-Smith.com; @PhoebeRSmith

Phoebe Smith:

On this month's Wonder Woman podcast.

Interviewee:

The male will have 24 hours erection. And the only part sweating will be the sex organ.

Phoebe Smith:

I meet the probiscous - or should that be promiscuous - monkeys of Sabah in Malaysian Borneo, and challenge my preconceptions by taking a group tour in association with Intrepid Travel. I also chat to climber, adventurer and now author, Leo Holding, about tales of adventure and what he made of Everest.

Leo Houlding:

Everest is a walk really. It's a big, cold, dangerous, scary walk, but it's not what I would describe as climbing.

Phoebe Smith:

And I catch up with the inspiring Matricia Bauer, an Indigenous guide in Jasper, an owner of Warrior Women, a company that through fiaside chats and drumming and foraging workshops, seeks to teach people about her culture and the darker side to Canadian history.

Interviewee:

I'm known what's part of the 60s scoop, so that means I was taken away from my original family.

Phoebe Smith:

Discover the 10 best places in the world where you can travel solo and in my regular gear geek out, I'll be talking walking boots vs shoes. Finally, I'll be revealing this episode's Wonder Woman of the Month, the traveler whose name is lost in the history books. You're listening to the Wonder Woman podcast, season 2, an audio travel magazine with me, phoebe Smith, exploring off-the-beat and track destinations, responsible travel experiences, wildlife encounters and the unsung heroes behind conservation efforts. Come wonder with me. The invite came in bright red letters from Intrepid Travel Sabre Adventure Climb Mount Kinabalu and head into the jungle to find Borneo's iconic wildlife. It promised to be a trip to rival all other trips. The catch it was a group trip. That would mean me, an avid solo traveler, sharing my experience, and often my bedroom, with others. But what would they be like? How would it affect the trip and what kind of people come on a group trip? There was only one way to find out.

Interviewee:

I'm Stephanie, I'm 33, and I'm from San Francisco.

Interviewee:

My name is Theresa, I turned 60 only a week ago and I am from London. I'm Michael, I'm 37, and I'm from Perth, Australia.

Interviewee:

I'm Alex, I'm 28, and I'm also from the UK.

Phoebe Smith:

So here I was in Kota Kinabalu, the capital of Sabre, with a diverse group of 10 people from the UK, australia and the USA. The youngest was 23, the oldest 62. Some were single, others in relationships, but choosing to experience this without their partner for various reasons, and there was even a couple who just married in Thailand. Some had done group travel before. For others, this was their first foray into it, so what made them take the plunge?

Interviewee:

Well, it's the unexpected. I never know who I'm going to meet, but invariably I leave with at least a friend or two.

Interviewee:

Arranging activities that I would not have thought to do or would have found it too intimidating to arrange myself.

Interviewee:

I'm a single person, so I just found it easier just to have someone else take the reins, just to take over. I don't have to plan anything.

Interviewee:

For me. I came out of a marriage-long relationship this time last year, so I'm just thinking well, that's not going to stop me going and doing the things I want to do.

Phoebe Smith:

So there you have it a mix of single people, people in relationships whose partner had other interests or couldn't get the time off work and even, as I mentioned, a pair on honeymoon.

Interviewee:

The whole adventure sort of holiday rather than honeymoon, shall we call it, because we're not really sit around the pool type of people. We enjoy getting out and doing things and so a big adventure trip like this suited us a lot more.

Phoebe Smith:

So would we all get on? Would my roommates snore and would we be friends by the end? Let's find out. We arrived in Lepong Lepong village in the foothills of Mt Kinabalu, where we would immerse ourselves into the culture and community, literally with a homestay.

Interviewee:

Hello, hello, I'm Phoebe. Oh, my name is Leela. Lovely to meet you.

Phoebe Smith:

We wanted to share the visit and associated cash around the village. So a split between three houses. Mine was with Leela, a teacher in Kota Kinabalu, mother to four and grandmother to five, whose husband farms here. I was to share a room with Stephanie, a 30-something from the USA, in their upstairs room and be temporarily part of their family.

Interviewee:

But first lunch, this one is what we call achar, mango, pineapple.

Phoebe Smith:

Filled by Leela's hearty dinner. We explored the village, learning about traditional medicinal uses of some plants and life in the foothills of Mount Kinabalu, a mountain that was very much part of the culture, as our guide, Jay, explains.

Interviewee:

The meaning in the local is a final resting point. So for our belief, we still believe after our family pass away, we will bury them and passing the mountain so it's easy for them to go there.

Phoebe Smith:

Back then, the mountain was most important spiritually, but now it's just as vital for employment From home stays like the ones we were staying in and guiding opportunities that travellers like us provide. Speaking of which, the next challenge was upon us climbing Mount Kinabalu, for which the group had mixed feelings.

Interviewee:

I'm really excited. I am very much looking forward to it. Oh my God, I am just like so nervous.

Interviewee:

Kind of scared sort of nervous, like a tiny bit excited, but mostly pretty nervous.

Phoebe Smith:

You're here with your new wife. What happens if one of you says I can't carry on? Are you going to go on on your own?

Interviewee:

I'd carry her with me.

Phoebe Smith:

We spent the day wandering in smaller groups, acclimatising, all united in the same goal to get to the summit. We were pepping each other up for the hike that evening then this happened, which inevitably meant over beer. We started discussing horror stories about the climb ahead.

Interviewee:

I saw the video of a guy being taken down in a stretcher down Kinabalu but apparently he wasn't injured. He was just too tired to make it down, that's how you get down.

Phoebe Smith:

The day had arrived and, despite all the nervous conversation we'd had the night before, we were on our way. Most of the group raced ahead, but myself and another woman, emma, noticed Teresa was struggling, so we decided to slow our pace to help motivate her along.

Interviewee:

It says two kilometres and our height is 2,252 metres. How have you been? You know what I feel a whole lot better than when I started, and I've got some good girls supporting me to breathe, so that's good, thank you.

Phoebe Smith:

It's amazing, I have to admit. Going at a steadier pace in this group gave me time to get to know Sappingi, our mountain guide, who, it's fair to say, knows this mountain better than anyone.

Interviewee:

Eighteen years, I do it, climbing twelve up to fourteen times a month. Imagine that twelve up to fourteen times a month and times twelve.

Phoebe Smith:

You heard that right. The man has been up to the summit thousands of times and so had another person I met only because I hung back with my girls and had a good guide and a hurt from the rain. Hello what's your name?

Interviewee:

Safrey.

Phoebe Smith:

Are you the fastest man to go up an down this mountain?

Interviewee:

Yes.

Interviewee:

Do you still remember the day you did it?

Interviewee:

In 2017, I think in August 2017.

Phoebe Smith:

And it took you just over two hours.

Interviewee:

Yeah, two hours, about two hours 18 minutes.

Interviewee:

Did you feel really exhausted at the end or were you ok?

Interviewee:

Tired. A little bit exhausted.

Phoebe Smith:

We weren't going that fast, but literally stopping to smell every flower. We finally made it to the mountain hut without feeling the effects of altitude sickness, and the next morning we finally reached the top at sunrise as a team.

Interviewee:

Oh, my life, it's over there.

Phoebe Smith:

As the sun set, or rather rose, on that part of our Sabah adventure, there was still more to come. After a couple of nights recuperating at Poring Hot Springs, it was time to head to the jungle, to come face to face with Borneo's Big Five, which Jay, my guide, explains now.

Interviewee:

Orangutan, alright, and then second is Elephant. They are very rare to spot.

Phoebe Smith:

Compared to the Orangutan, that's the hardest, would you say.

Interviewee:

Yes. And then after that, the Probiscus Monkey, which is very common. This is the endemic species. And Kinabatangan is the best place to spot. One is the Rhinoceros hornbill.

Phoebe Smith:

That's right, on arrival to Kinabatangan, we'd already ticked one of our Big Five, the crocodile, off our list, and not long after that we saw the hornbill two in fact with their almost comedically big yellow beaks. Then the trademark species, the probiscus monkey, loomed into view in the trees with its large protruding nose, where Jay had a fun fact to share with the group.

Interviewee:

The male will have 24 hours erection. The only part that's sweating will be the sex organ.

Phoebe Smith:

We headed back to the lodge as night began to fall, congratulating ourselves on successfully seeing three of the big five. Then came perhaps my favourite moment. We had found the pygmy elephants, one of the hardest of the big five species to spot. A nd what made it really special, surprisingly to me, was that I got to share the moment with the group. That night I had my own room and it was odd to not have a roommate to dissect the day with. Dare I admit that I actually missed it. Was I becoming a group travel convert? Spurred on by our success, we left Kinabatangan and head to Sandakan, from where we would get a boat to an island to see yet more wildlife, and it seems our time on the mountain and in the jungle had cemented our bond as a group.

Interviewee:

Everyone say turtle, "Turtle.

Phoebe Smith:

We rode the waves to Silicon Island and spent the day circling it on foot in the hope of spying hawksbill or green turtles, before snorkelling together looking under the sea. A storm saw us shelter outside our rooms and, unplanned, we ended up all bringing out snacks we brought from the food market back at Sandakan, sharing tales of travels and getting excited for tonight's chance to see turtles laying eggs on the beach. As dusk came and gave way tonight, I was chatting to the ranger about the turtles and conservation when we got the call.

Interviewee:

Many researchers come here to research and find out about the: "

Phoebe Smith:

Turtle time. Turtle time! The moment we'd all come for, had arrived. We grabbed our head torches, set on red so not to disturb the wildlife, and crept down to the beach to watch a mother lay 82 eggs in a hole on the sand. Rangers moved them to a safer spot, fenced off from predators, to give them the best chance of survival. And then, further down the beach, we released a newly hatched batch of 20 turtles and watched them race towards the sea. In the morning, the rangers posted news of all the nesting activity seen on the beach that night.

Phoebe Smith:

How many eggs do you think were collected last night?

Interviewee:

I don't know four, five hundred.

Phoebe Smith:

Five hundred and three, how much. Two thousand, five hundred and three, you're a bit over, you're way under.

Interviewee:

Oh wow, oh, loads more.

Phoebe Smith:

We left the island and headed to our final destination, Sepilok, to see the final of our big five, the orangutan. Due to deforestation due to palm oil plantations, the best place to see them now is actually in the sanctuary they have here. They are all free roaming but tend to gather here to feed.

Interviewee:

Wow.

Phoebe Smith:

And just like that we had done it. We'd scaled Mount Kinabalu, seen Borneo's big five and participated in a turtle hatching program. But for me, the most key thing was that I had travelled with a group and survived, but not only survived, but actually thrived. And how did my group find it? I think it's best I leave it to them to say.

Interviewee:

Yeah, so this is my first solo travel holiday experience in a very long time, so I wasn't quite sure how I was going to feel, but I absolutely loved it. I think the little things like going to the market or going to the supermarket and everyone buying different snacks and foods to try that you don't really think of, so we could all try new things and share them together, was really nice. But just getting to know everyone and helping each other up the mountain obviously I wouldn't have been able to get up there alone.

Interviewee:

That was probably the thing I was most anxious about. I'm not really a people person, but it's been nice to have that sort of social element and being able to see lots of people from all over the place and listen to their experiences and other things that they've done with travelling. It's been pleasantly surprising.

Interviewee:

Two weeks ago we would have all been complete strangers, and now we've just experienced all these incredible things together and we've got these kind of massive lifelong memories with people who you just wouldn't have known a couple of weeks ago. I think that's just something really ace about that.

Phoebe Smith:

That was me and my incredible Intrepid group, reporting from Sabah in Malaysian Borneo. It was an incredible experience to have, and a unique one for someone like me who'd normally choose to do it all alone, but I really think I saw and felt the value of travelling with like-minded companions. After all, having an amazing experience is one thing, but sharing it creates a lifelong bond, and many of these people I've kept in touch with since returning home. Thank you, intrepid Travel and Sabah Tourism this episode's podcast partners for challenging me with this Borneo adventure. I cannot wait till the next one.

Phoebe Smith:

Now I may have fallen for the joys of group travel with this month's trip, and I know a huge part of that was having an awesome remake to share the experience with. That said, room sharing can be the most daunting aspect of group travel, especially if you're used to living alone. But instead of worrying about if they snore, if they'll be annoying and if they'll get on, flip it, reframe it and ask yourself will I make a lifelong friend? What will they add to the trip? And how can I make it fun? Because good roommating is a two-way street. Still worried, don't be. My travel hack of the month will ensure you will sleep soundly, no matter who you end up sharing a room with.

Phoebe Smith:

First up, choose the right trip as your naturally book a trip that includes something you're passionate about, be it hiking, bird or wildlife watching, maybe cycling. There will be an extremely high chance that the person or people you'll be sharing it with are equally as passionate about conservation, climbing or discussing the great subtleties of kayak strokes. Linked to this is to choose the right tour company for your, let's say, demographic. You're not going to get much peace and quiet on a club 18 to 13th holiday, and a saga cruise could be a little too sleepy for you, especially if you've got three kids in tow. Each tour company caters to a fairly specific audience. Choose the one that reflects your interests and values. Secondly, channel your inner diplomat, that persona you channel when the person in the queue pays in pennies, or the one that lets it go when you saw the pub quiz winner check their phone on that flag picture round.

Phoebe Smith:

Let's be honest, you're not going to get on with everyone. We're all different, we all have opinions and they're not all the same, thankfully, but it's worth avoiding confrontation. Everyone is there to have a holiday and an intense discussion could affect your holiday and change the dynamic of the group. In fact, in my experience, by the end of the trip I'm often best friends with the person I thought may not be my type at the beginning. So give everyone a chance. Related to this is to pack a peace offering. Giving sweets or chocolate makes a great first impression and it's a kind thing to do. Or perhaps give a little trinket from your hometown or country.

Phoebe Smith:

Thirdly, it's often worth spending a little bit of extra money on the first and last night of your trip on a single room. You're going to arrive tired, possibly jet-lagged and, speaking for myself, sometimes a little bit grumpy. Spare everyone else this and earn yourself some solitude to find your bearings, get to know people, unpack and sleep soundly. Another tip is to avoid peer pressure Heading in the opposite direction to group mentality. Even if it's whether to head to another bar or go to bed can be hard to do when you're trying to bond and have fun. But remember to do what's right for you.

Phoebe Smith:

On a walking holiday, don't feel forced to walk too quickly just to keep up. A quiet word with the guide is always the best bet here. Always ask yourself is there something you really want to do before going with the majority, no one will judge you. And finally, yes, earplugs and an eye mask. Never, ever, travel without earplugs. Ever, even if your roommate does become your best friend. That was my Wonder Woman travel hack the insider knowledge. I offer every single episode to make your travel life that bit easier. Now, when it comes to insider knowledge about a place, you simply cannot beat signing up to an experience with a local, and if the place you're going to offers indigenous experiences, then you'll feel even more connected to the land. This episode's travel hero is offering that as a way to educate people about her Cree heritage, as well as confront some uncomfortable truths about her country. Tell me a little bit about yourself, because I know that Matricia is your name, but you have another name, don't you? In Cree?

Interviewee:

So my traditional name is she who moves mountains, and in my language is , and we get a new name when we come of age, and that was the name that my elder gave me.

Phoebe Smith:

Obviously a beautiful name and sounds like a very apt name for someone whose company is called Warrior Women, but you weren't always in touch with your Cree heritage, were you? Tell me a little bit about your life growing up and then how you rediscovered your heritage?

Interviewee:

Yeah. So I mean I always knew that I was indigenous and my parents did a really good job exposing me to you know what that meant, but I wasn't practising ceremony or speaking my language or practising my customs, in a very integrated way, simply because I'm known what's part of the 60s scoop. So that means I was taken away from my original family and eventually I was adopted out of foster care with my brother and we moved from our reserve well, from the area where our reserve is, to Calgary, and I spent my time in Calgary from about five on until I was in my 20s.

Phoebe Smith:

And tell me a little bit about the 60s scoop, because this may not be a phenomena that people actually have heard about.

Interviewee:

Yeah, so the 60s scoop was sort of a social services movement to take actively take indigenous children away from their parents for pretty much any reason and reintegrate them into white families and it was a way of further colonization, integration and a way of removing indigenous children away from their culture. And it certainly happened to almost 70% of the kids that were taken off our reserve, which is a shockingly high number and quite a common practice during that time. It still happens today, but it was pretty prevalent in the 60s, 70s, 80s and still happening in the 90s.

Phoebe Smith:

Wow, that's a that is shocking. I mean, I remember when I first heard about residential schools, I was I was shocked, but you think of something as being something that happened a long time ago, but you say it's still even happening today.

Interviewee:

Yeah, and actually the last residential school didn't close till 1996. So the residential school is a multi- generational problem. My mother went to residential school as well, and so I think that eventually led to our removal with the social services system. So, yeah, definitely cycles of trauma that have repeated over and over again, and so I think that part of my journey has been to stop that cycle in raising my own children.

Phoebe Smith:

And when you were, when you were obviously then taken up by this, put with a different family and growing up as a teen. We all go through some kind of like angst and this kind of thing. But did a lot of that have to do with your being removed from your family, because it must have been a traumatic experience growing up and did you at one point sort of think actually, maybe a lot of the trauma that I've experienced has really impacted me as a person?

Interviewee:

I don't think I consciously thought of it that way, but definitely all of that that happened to me definitely played into behaviors that I still deal with today, like anxiety and depression, but particularly when I was a teenager growing up, I basically had an existential identity crisis and really wasn't sure where I belonged. And how much of that was attributed to to that trauma is kind of hard to pinpoint exactly, but, yeah, definitely played a big role. There's no doubt about it.

Interviewee:

I think part of my healing journey was just discovering how much tenacity and strength I have within myself, but then also learning about my culture has brought me closer to basic truths. It's brought me closer to my community, which then, of course, gives me comfort and builds my circle of support, and it's also given me strength to learn my culture and in drumming and singing and mentoring other people and being able to do traditional crafts. I really enjoy that process and it's all healing and very meditative and Indigenous. Culture is actually very nature based, so it's very grounding and every time I learned something new it just sort of is sort of like you know, seems to be natural. It was never really a struggle the big. The struggle was finding places and spaces where I could learn proper information, and naturally I think we have a tendency in this day and age to reach out to Google and some of the information you get from there isn't always accurate. I was really lucky that I found that Elders in my area that were able to kind of guide me along in my journey.

Phoebe Smith:

It sounds incredibly generous to invite people in and, you know, let them ask you questions and share that. Share what's happened to you. Do you ever feel resentful about what happened to you, that you were taken away from your family?

Interviewee:

Oh, all the time. But I think that I mean you basically can't live in the past. If you want to move forward, you have to be able to have some sort of departmentalization or reckoning or recognition. You can't. I don't want to be defined by what happened to me in the past, because it wasn't something that I chose to have happened to me, it's something that happened to me and so I have to be able to, you know, put that in the past and not forget.

Interviewee:

But that's one of the reasons why I share my story, so that people can understand the struggles that I had, you know, moving forward, and even though I had what most people would consider a privileged life with a family unit, and you know, both my parents lived fairly affluently, and so I still live affluently, and and there was no sort of economic, I still struggled as a person to kind of decide, you know, where I belonged in this world, and it didn't really matter how much money you have to do that. You still, I still had to like, reckon it within myself, so resentful, not anymore. I think that was part of my process, but now I'm just want my story to be about what I've done in spite of that.

Phoebe Smith:

Yeah, and what does the reaction tend to be like from people at these fireside chats today? Because I think one of the things with travelers we want to learn about the indigenous people of the places that we go to, but there's always a fear that we'll put our foot in it by saying the wrong thing, using the wrong word, asking a question they couldn't ask. Do you find the chats that you do with people, the experiences you offer, kind of remove that awkwardness so they can actually really start to understand?

Interviewee:

100%. I'm trying to create a space and a place that's safe, and we talk about that right off the bat. You know we're in a circle of safety. I don't want you to take pictures or record what's happening, I just want you to be present and in the moment, and I also don't want you to be afraid and I'm not expecting people to come from the rest of the world and use the proper terminology because then, like you said, it stops them from being.

Interviewee:

You know, people want to be sensitive and they want to be.

Interviewee:

You know they don't want to come across, as you know, daft.

Interviewee:

So obviously they are going to be careful with how they say their words, but I want them to be able to express themselves without a fear of repercussion, because we're all on this journey together of learning and you know there was times when I have totally even misused words or characters, and there's a lot of things in life that you know I'm still learning about and still struggle with. You know, some of my friends are more gender fluid and there's a whole terminology that goes with that as well, that I'm, you know, emerging. So I use that experience of myself as an emerging learner to understand that the people that are coming to me are coming. They're not coming to be ridiculed. They're coming to get an authentic Indigenous experience, and the last thing I want to do is make anybody feel uncomfortable. I think that the nature of what we're talking about can make people feel uncomfortable, obviously, but I think that when people are coming into my circle, they're there because they want to learn and they want to be brave.

Phoebe Smith:

That was Matricia Bauer of Warrior Women, who, I have to say, is a true inspiration, not only to me and other travellers who take part in her programmes, but to her community too. She is currently training several Indigenous people to teach them how to share their stories and culture in a tourism setting, offering opportunities to those who have felt disenfranchised in the past. Do check out her work at warriorwomen. ca and indigenousbitters. ca and if you're headed to Canada, do look up destinationindigenous. ca to find an original, original experience close to you. Now, this episode we've really focused on group travel and bringing people together, but that was not to say that you shouldn't travel solo. After all, the perks are many, from the freedom to choose what you do to really connecting with locals and place without being in your own bubble. So where to go? Listen up to this episode's Top 10. Sick of forking out for a single supplement? Then turn your attention to Japan in at 10. Because many Japanese hotels and ryokans, not to mention the infamous capsule hotel pods, actually charge per person rather than per room, meaning you'll find it cheaper if going solo. Arigato for that. At 9, it's Iceland, topping the list of the safest destinations in the world. It also has an excellent public transport network, meaning it is cheap and convenient to get around without having to pay for car hire and fuel that, when you're solo, all adds up.

Phoebe Smith:

Want to take a tour? There's loads that attract fellow like-minded travellers. And for space, it's got that in bucket loads. Antarctica claims the number 8 spot. Check out many expedition cruise companies, as the large number allow you to pay for the bed, not the cabin. It may mean a roommate, but then you're barely inside, spending way more time gawping at the scenery and getting close to the thousands of penguins.

Phoebe Smith:

In at 7 it's Canada. Why? Well, it's a cliche, but it really is an incredibly friendly nation. But there's also no language barrier, meaning you can natter away to the locals and get the top tips rather than wandering around without a clue. The Italian Dolomites come in at 6. Well, here, specifically because they do the shared catered chalet during the ski season particularly well. If you fancy a ski holiday, search for a small chalet that sleeps somewhere between 9 and 14.

Phoebe Smith:

Solo travellers are always welcome and will often find many other like-minded people. Get really particular and choose one with a communal table for a really sociable experience, while offering you the choice to do your own thing during the day Bellissimo At 5, maybe a curveball for you. Rather than choosing a specific place, find a specific event to base your travel around. It could be a British Folk Festival, the Isle of Wight Garlic Festival, a Ramadan event, Montreal Comedy Festival, whatever floats your boat. But travelling for a specific reason like this, there's always similar people at the same place, at the same time, and usually you can spot them a mile away, even in cities.

Phoebe Smith:

In fourth place, it's Ireland. A cliche, yes. A fallacy, no. Ireland is one of the world's friendliest destinations and one that welcomes solo travellers with open arms and usually a pint of Guinness too. Head to the streets of Galway and listen out for live music and you'll be dancing with the locals within half a pint. It's an often overlooked country for walking too, so get yourself out there and get time alone during the day, then live it up at night.

Phoebe Smith:

At 3, it's Stockholm. Capital cities can sometimes feel intimidating for the solo traveller, with fear of getting swallowed up by a mass of people busying themselves with life, but Stockholm is different. It never feels like a maelstrom with its wide boulevards and river walkways, but it's more about its residents, who generally have a relaxed take on life, making time for the famous Swedish fika, relaxing with a coffee and pastry every morning and savouring a beer in a bar in Söder, the locals' neighbourhood on any given evening. Plus, it frequently tops the list of the safest capital cities in the world.

Phoebe Smith:

<span data-v-07c63b49="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="98" data-eindex="221" data-key="98221At1964. 916" style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);">At</span><span data-v-07c63b49="" class="transcript-element" data-mindex="98" data-eindex="222" data-key="98222 1965. 016" style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);"> </span><span data-v-07c63b49="" class="transcript-element highlightedEditWord" data-mindex="98" data-eindex="223" data-key="982232,1965. 036" style="--tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-pan-x: ; --tw-pan-y: ; --tw-pinch-zoom: ; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ordinal: ; --tw-slashed-zero: ; --tw-numeric-figure: ; --tw-numeric-spacing: ; --tw-numeric-fraction: ; --tw-ring-inset: ; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgba(59,130,246,. 5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 253);">2,</span>t's Thailand, the land of smiles. Not only are solo tourists welcome, but the country is practically set up with solo travellers in mind, both backpackers and the luxury end of the market, with amazing deals to be had On transport air-conditioned, first-class sleeper train from Bangkok to Chiang Mai for under £50, anyone. Accommodation is cheap, even for the fancy stays and excursions are bound that are packed with fellow travellers on their own meaning. Friends are made easily. My advice Book a tour to find your feet up first, then immerse yourself in the place post-trip, perhaps with a new friend or two in tow. And hitting the top spot, it's New Zealand Beautiful, peaceful, very safe, no wildlife to worry about when hiking here, and English-speaking and forward-thinking when it comes to solo travellers, with social hostels in every major town to meet other people. New Zealand really does have it all. Jump on, hop on, hop off buses that seem to wind from party town to party town or there to join as well as hiking groups, or you can do a self-drive. It's the perfect destination for those of us who love to go it alone. And New Zealand, a place where I have strolled alone on many an epic hike. It's no surprise that it made the top of this month's top 10.

Phoebe Smith:

Speaking of hiking, one of the items of kit I absolutely cannot do without is my hiking boots. No Shoes, no, Boots. So which is it? Want to know which is best? There's only one way to find out Listen up to this month's gear chat coming up next. It's no secret that I hate packing. I'll tell anyone who listens often enough. But when packing footwear for my adventures, I know that they are the single most important choice I'll make. I have an array of favoured boots classic, reliable, ankle supporting, but increasingly walk-in shoes now too. So what are the merits and shortfalls of both? Know that, and it can make choosing the right one much easier.

Phoebe Smith:

First up shoes. We're not talking simple workout trainers here. These are actual walking shoes equipped with an aggressive set of lugs on the soles to grip wet and muddy terrain, rubber bumpers on the toe to protect them from rocks and often, though not always, aligning that keeps it waterproof. They are a great lightweight option for flatter and more even terrain and also for warmer weather. For that reason, I often go for a pair without waterproofing as a whole. I put my foot in will, after all, allow water in, no matter how repellent the rest of the shoe is. If I'm only carrying a small day pack and don't need ankle support, then these are my go-to. I actually just walked the Hadrian's Wall Path across the width of Britain in a pair of these and they did me proud.

Phoebe Smith:

Boots are often heavier, however. They are the stalwart of hiking adventures. Not only do they provide protection to your ankle vital when carrying a large pack and navigating tricky terrain but also, depending on the model you go for, can help provide a more rigid shelf for your foot when scrambling over rocks and even take a cramp on or cleats in snowy or icy conditions. Waterproofing will actually work when paired with rain trousers and if it gets cold you can rely on your feet retaining the heat. Experienced hikers will find they know when they can get away without, but my motto is always if I'm not sure, go for the classic boot, which always have managed to keep my feet in good walking order. That was my regular geek out about travel gear. Hope it helps you next time you pack for an adventure.

Phoebe Smith:

My next guest is no stranger for packing for adventures, or rather full-on expeditions Cumbrian Leo Holding, a world-class climber famed for racing a car up a mountain on Top Gear (he won, by the way) and undertaking ambitious overseas ascents. He's now written a book all about it. I caught it with him to discuss the literal highs of his illustrious career. You're listening to the Wander Woman Travel Podcast and I'm joined by Britain's best and certainly best known climber, Leo Holding. Leo, how are you doing?

Leo Houlding:

Good. Thank you, Phoebe.

Phoebe Smith:

And tell me have you just got back from any incredible adventure that you can make us all envious about?

Leo Houlding:

Well, I've been back for a couple of weeks now, but yes, we had an amazing summer in Scandinavia, in Norway, in northern Norway mostly, which was absolutely wonderful.

Phoebe Smith:

So obviously your books come out, which I know. When I spoke to you first, probably back in about 2010, 2011, you were saying then you'd like to write one, but you are a bit of a perfectionist, so you wanted to wait till you had time to do it justice. And one of the things I really like about it is that you say in it that, rather than think of yourself as a climber per se, you're more of an adventurer. Can you just explain that a little bit more?

Leo Houlding:

Well, climbing is definitely the focus of most of the big adventures I go on.

Leo Houlding:

But something I've realised, having you know, I'm 42 now and I've been climbing professionally since my entire adult life so 25 years or something and I've realised that the most memorable expeditions and experiences are it's not just the climbs, it's not just the hardest climbs and the pinnacle performance, it's kind of the whole package.

Leo Houlding:

For me, the most memorable adventures have been ones with an element of journey to them, where you go into unusual places and you see strange things along the way and I've realised, looking back, especially with the kind of reflection you do upon writing a book, that that's been as important as the climbs themselves, although the climbs have definitely given the purpose. And even now, when we do stuff as a family, we've been going on a lot of family adventures. This summer in Norway I went out there with my kids, who are five and nine now, my wife and we had the camper van out there. I enjoy going into the wilderness and going on treks and missions, but I definitely find when you throw in the kind of jeopardy of a big, pointy, technical mountain in the middle of a journey, it just kind of rounds off the whole package.

Phoebe Smith:

And your book starts with you obviously talking about the top gear experience, that kind of put you on the map, as it were. But then you take us back to your roots in Wales, going to Llanberis when you were younger and just kind of decided you want to make it as a climber. And then throughout the book, like you said, it sort of almost starts like a traditional climbing book, I would say, where you're talking about kind of cutting your teeth on rock and getting your experience and your levels up there. But then you very quickly, like you said, you're drawn to these much more kind of ambitious places. Shall we say so Yosemite, Patagonia, Everest, were those sort of places when you knew that climbing was something you could do really well. Were those kind of places something that was always an ultimate goal for you?

Leo Houlding:

Not so much Everest. You know the Everest is a different type of climbing and it's kind of a bit of a circus these days, full of people who aren't really climbers. But the other places yes, places like Yosemite and Mount Asgard and Queen Marlin, and Antarctica and Patagonia, the peaks around Fitzroy these aren't particularly well known places outside of climbing circles, while some of them are. You know, patagonia is becoming more known. But yeah, pointy mountains, put simply, technical mountains, not peaks, not big ones that are kind of. You know, everest is a walk. Really. It's a big, cold, dangerous, scary walk, but it's not what I would describe as climbing where you know, for me, climbing you've got to be using your hands. And those big, pointy mountains, which there's only really a handful of places in the world, you know, there's maybe a dozen or two dozen max ranges that have those really the kind of mountains that kids draw, you know, ones with no easy way to the top, that are almost vertical on all sides, and that's definitely something that's always motivated me.

Phoebe Smith:

And I do love that what you said about, unlike some, I suppose, more mountaineers perhaps than climbers, but climbers themselves can tend to go for those names, that sort of everyone's heard of, even if you're not a climber or a mountaineer, whereas you seem to have chosen, based on, like you said, the pointy mountain that you just want to climb and find a route up, rather than something that's already an icon. Would that be fair?

Leo Houlding:

Yeah, certainly, and weirdly, something I've sort of come to realise as well is that for me, these pointy mountains, they're very aesthetically beautiful things. You really don't have to be a climber to look at Mount Asgard or Cerro Torre or Ulvetanna to think, my God, that's. You know, they're absolutely remarkable, these massive. The scale is hard to get your head around. You know, when you look at these chunks of rock, they are hundreds of times bigger than anything that humans have ever built. You know, you think the Great Pyramid of Giza is big. You put that next to El Capitan and you barely even see it. They're absolutely magnificent things, and not just the scale. They're really aesthetically beautiful, these pointy ones with big, soaring ridges, and they're really magnificent things, total Lord of the Rings type landscapes.

Leo Houlding:

And even just being there is an amazing experience. For example, the peaks around Fitzroy and Cerro Torre in Patagonia, that's, in Argentine, patagonia, which is somewhere I'm sure many of you listeners will be familiar with. It's a famous trekking area in the Los Glaciares National Park. But the thing is, when you go there trekking which is a great way to experience a landscape you tend to only spend a couple of days there and you might see one or two sunrises and a couple of sunsets, and that's great. It's definitely better than not doing. But as a climber, you spend weeks and months immersed in these landscapes. So you see, you know 30, 40 sunrises and sunsets and you really get to sort of engage with these amazing places on a much deeper level and you start to see the change of the seasons and stuff which, as a visitor, you know photographers and trekkers, who are really the only people that often go to these places. They don't spend as long, they don't have the reason to stay for as long, and that's definitely a special part of it.

Phoebe Smith:

It's funny because it almost sounds like the ultimate in slow travel, which has become this really popular movement. But obviously a lot of us would love the thought of going somewhere to stay that long and see the seasons change. But you've got this technical skill that I suppose that most of us mere mortals lack, do you? I've got to ask some of these places. Obviously, like I've been to Patagonia, but I went to do some trekking but also to go and watch the wildlife, to go see Puma, and you know, everest for me it was about the Sherpa culture and stopping the villages. In the Arctic it was about the Inuit. Venezuela, of course, is somewhere that we sadly can't go at the moment. But you know, obviously in that climb, you know you talk about the trip with yopo and meeting the tribes. But how much when you're going on trips to climb, how much do you get to actually see as almost a traveller? Is it purely about the climb or do you allow, within your planning sometimes actually indulge a little bit outside of the mountain?

Leo Houlding:

Well, it depends where you're going, you know, like somewhere like Antarctica. Once you get there, there's not much interaction with anybody else because but, for example and I ended up cutting this entire chapter from the book because it was just too back heavy but we did a big expedition to Guyana in 2019 It was a very much a travel experience. It's a long journey to get to the mountain and we were working with a local tribe called the Akawaio people, who live in the rainforest in the kind of vicinity of the mountain. So there we spent, you know, 45 days in the jungle with these guys. For most of that time, including two of them who came up the cliff with us we trained them how to climb a vertical wall. So, edward and Troy to these Aqawaio guys who live in the rainforest you know there are an indigenous people who kind of helped us get to the base of the wall and then we helped them get to the top. So that was really special to really immerse in the, in their culture and get to know the forest from their point of view, which was wonderful. It was one of the best parts of the trip from my perspective and generally you know you always on these faraway trips you usually end up flying into a big city.

Leo Houlding:

You always end up spending a bit of time there and then gradually you get further and further away. But normally I'm not. I tried to avoid too much of the tourist stuff. We tend not to tick off too many other sites. I mean you, if you're somewhere with, if you're passing through somewhere with something amazing and you've got a couple of days, you will go and see it. But normally they are quite targeted missions and so you definitely have the travel experience but not so much the tourist one that was climate and adventure.

Phoebe Smith:

Leo's book 'Closer to the Edge' is out now and is packed full of tales of his many expeditions and achievements, all without over focusing on the technical details of climbing itself. It is highly recommended for the travel elements alone, and already it's nearly the end of the episode, so time for me to share with you the Wander Woman of the month. I hope you've enjoyed what you've heard. Please do subscribe so you never miss an episode, and please do leave a review. It means so much to me. You can follow me on Twitter and Instagram @PhoebeRSmith, and go to my website, phoebe-s mith. com to get in touch and see what I'm up to. And, of course, do check out my friends at intrepid travel. com, and sabbatourism. com, who took this Wander Woman on a group trip to Borneo. Now, without further ado, it's my pleasure to introduce an adventurous Yorkshire lass who became the first participant in a group tour the Swiss Alps and arguably became one of the original travel writers in the process. The year is 1863. The location the Swiss Bernese Alps, on a precarious ledge hitting the dizzying heights of 2322 meters above sea level. Back then, it was a place known only in the sepia photographs of male explorers dressed head to toe in expedition gear. But here there stands a woman dressed in a corset and a crinoline dress. Her name, Jemima Ann Morrell. Here on the Gemmi Pass, she's not only cheerfully walking up it, clinging onto ropes attached to the rocks, but then, when she gets there, proceeds to take part in an enthusiastic snowball fight. And when it comes to fending off falling balls of ice from further up the mountain, well, she had her umbrella. That we know about Jemima's Victorian travels at all is a remarkable story in itself. Having kept her diary under wraps, her full identity as the writer was only uncovered in the 1960s on their publication.

Phoebe Smith:

Born in Selby in Yorkshire in 1832, she joined the junior United Alpine Club in school, a predominantly women only member organization that would make annual trips around the UK, from Scotland to Cornwall. At the age of 31 in 1863, she joined the first ever guided tour of Switzerland with her brother William and 60 other tourists, where the famed snowball fight occurred. For three weeks the group explored the country, cities and countryside, always dressed immaculately, regardless of the activity and the leader of the tour, one Thomas Cook, who was beginning to define modern international tourism. The tours run by Cook back then were particularly popular among women who felt they could finally travel safely in groups. Throughout her trip, Jemima kept a diary recording details and hijinks. This was a journey to explore a new country, to have fun, to find adventure. It wasn't to collect paintings or relics, nor push the boundaries of exploration, which, back in 1832, was somewhat radical in itself the idea of traveling for the sake of enjoyment. She was, by several definitions, one of the first modern tourists. She described the places she visited, quoted poets and writers, including Wordsworth and Ruskin, and remembered the characters she traveled with great detail. She originally wrote her diary for the sole audience of the junior United Alpine Club but upon her return to England promptly forgot all about it. Instead she turned her attention to illustrating books and looking after her son.

Phoebe Smith:

She died in Yorkshire in 1909, oblivious to the legacy she had left behind. Then, during an air raid in London during World War two, a warehouse owned by the Thomas Cook company was destroyed, but among the remnants found in the aftermath in a small tin box was a copy of Jemima's journal. It was published in 1963 as Miss Jemima's Swiss Journal, the first conducted tour of Switzerland. The title only references her first name, because, well, that's all that was in the book. The publisher had no idea who she was, but after its publication an unlikely success Anne Vernon, researching her own book around a Yorkshire family, unearthed the connection after analyzing records from Thomas Cook's archival material. Now Jemima morals writings serve as a record of a time when travel as we know it shifted forever. Yet how many of us know her name? For treading where others would later follow, for keeping such a detailed record of her trip that would later inform travel writers on the art of a good tale and, of course, for doing it all in a corset. Jemima moral is our snowball fighting crinoline wearing Wander Woman of the month.

Phoebe Smith:

In the next episode of the Wander Woman podcast, I'm headed to the Emerald Isle for a special island takeover. Join me as I navigate down the longest river in the British Isles, the River Shannon, to discover the legends, landscapes and crack in one of the oldest bars in Ireland. I also chat to a local story teller who unfurls the myths of the country's hidden heartland. My travel hack will help you find the best free things you can do in the country. I'll be discussing gear for shoulder season travel and, as the Wild Atlantic Way turns 10, I recommend the best stops to visit along the way. See you then, Wander Woman out. The Wonder Woman podcast is written and edited by me, Phoebe Smith. The producer for this episode and writer of additional material is Daniel Nielson. The logo was designed by John Summerton. Thanks to this episode's podcast partners In trepid Travel and Sabbah Tourism. And a final thanks to all the people I met on my journey and were willing to talk to me. It's because of you that this podcast is able to happen at all.