Wander Woman: A Travel Podcast

Are We Nearly There Yet?

• Phoebe Smith • Season 2 • Episode 10

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There’s a new buzzword in travel – “multi-generational” or multi-gen. That is at least 3 generations of the same family travelling together. Grandparents, parents and children choosing to holiday together despite each having their own specific wants and needs. SOUNDS TERRIFYING! Yet it is reportedly a growing trend. Keen to go behind the headlines as ever, Phoebe takes her whole tribe - 75-year-old dad, 3-year-old son, and partner to SE Asia, to travel 1,200 miles from Singapore to Thailand, by train. How will it go? Will they still be talking at the end? And who will be the first to ask the dreaded question - "Are we nearly there yet?"

Also coming up:

How to survive a night on a sleeper train in South East Asia; discover how to travel as friends and still be talking at the end of the trip with Race Across the World winners Tricia Sail and Cathie Rowe; learn how to dress to survive hot and humid conditions; meet the man who was key to bringing bison back to Saskatchewan's prairies in Canada; Wander Woman of the Month – Florence Baker.

Contact Wander Woman

www.Phoebe-Smith.com; @PhoebeRSmith

Speaker 1:

on this month's Wander Woman podcast.

Speaker 2:

When you eat Asian food, you share everything. It's very convivial. You put everything in the middle of the table. When you go back to Europe, everybody has this plate. You know it's my plate. I eat my food.

Speaker 1:

I head to Southeast Asia to experience the joys of sharing travel experiences with your nearest and dearest. By taking my whole family to traverse the continent by train, I also catch up with winners of Race Across the World, Tricia and Cathie, to find out what it's like travelling across country with your best friend.

Speaker 3:

So, Thelma and Louise, without the killing spree and the bit at the end? No, we're not doing the bit at the end.

Speaker 1:

And I meet the man who helped bring bison back to Saskatchewan and saw them unearth a very important find.

Speaker 4:

When I brushed it off. No, it was a petroglyph, it was a piece of rock art.

Speaker 1:

Also coming up. My regular travel hack reveals how you can get the best night's kip on a sleeper train in Asia. In my top 10 segment, I consider the best types of trip to go multi-gen, and in my usual gear chat, I'll be unpicking or should that be unpacking the best clothes to take on a trip in humid climes. Finally, I'll be revealing this episode's Wander Woman of the Month, the traveller whose name is lost in the history books. You're listening to the Wander Woman podcast, an audio travel magazine, with me, adventurer Phoebe Smith, exploring off-the-beaten-track destinations, wild spaces, wildlife encounters and the unsung heroes behind conservation efforts. Come wander with me. We are on holiday.

Speaker 3:

We are on holiday.

Speaker 1:

That is my three-year-old singing. And before you switch off thinking I'm not interested in hearing about Phoebe's kid, bear with me because there's a new buzzword in travel multi-generational or multi-gen. This is at least three generations of the same family travelling together. That's right. Grandparents, parents and children choosing to holiday together, despite each having their own specific wants and needs in terms of sightseeing preferences, types of cuisine they will and won't eat and differing bedtimes. So I'm with you if you're thinking sounds terrifying, but just a few months ago the diagnosis came that dad had a condition that can be a gateway for dementia if the mind is not stimulated. So when my brother announced his wedding in Thailand, I decided to act. I convinced my father to fly to Asia with me, my partner and son, 1,200 miles away from the wedding venue, with two weeks to make it north by train. So if you're feeling brave, join us as we arrive at our first stop, singapore. What are you most looking forward to seeing in Singapore?

Speaker 5:

I'm most looking forward. I don't know, ok, maybe the rain. I like the rain, I don't know what Okay.

Speaker 6:

Maybe, the rain I like.

Speaker 1:

You like the rain. What are you looking forward to seeing most in Singapore?

Speaker 7:

I'm looking forward to our Hop on, hop off bus.

Speaker 1:

Grandad, what are you looking forward to the most?

Speaker 7:

Just experiencing a new place that I've never been to before.

Speaker 1:

And we're all feeling a bit tired and jaded apart from me, yeah, apart from you. Funnily enough, we'll get coffee and then we'll do our tour, shall we? I'm pretty sure it wasn't all about the rain, though. It was storming down when we arrived, and no one greets life with the same enthusiasm my son approaches a splashy puddle.

Speaker 1:

As you heard, our first excursion was the very touristy hop-on, hop-off bus, not my usual scene, but I quickly realised that multi-gen is code word for compromise and I found I had to give up my preference for pavement-pounding exploration. I would never have done something like a bus tour on my own, but as we weaved through the streets, breathing in the wonderful scent of cumin and coriander in Little India, sesame and ginger in Chinatown, while being told all about Singlish, the unofficial English Singaporean language of this island nation, and having mosques, churches and skyscrapers pointing out to us, I actually enjoyed every minute and learned a lot. After a couple of hours orientation, we stopped at a hawker centre actually the perfect place for everyone to eat. So we're in the International Food Court. What have you had?

Speaker 7:

I've had some canned made noodles with chicken. That's absolutely delicious and the pak choy is delicious in it as well.

Speaker 1:

What are you having? What's this? Is it?

Speaker 6:

noodles.

Speaker 1:

Vegetarian noodles or vegetable noodles. Are they tasty, grandad? What are you having? I don't know. You're having chicken biryani, right? It's a good old past. That's what you've had.

Speaker 1:

The experience here already had both my son and father feeling brave enough to try foods they would never have ordered otherwise. The second day we headed to the Garden of the Bay, where we spent many hours wandering amid the biodomes. My dad is a keen gardener, enjoying views of the Singapore skyline. My partner loves a city, cooling off in the kids' free water playground I think you can guess who that was for and ending beneath the supertrees, where these man-made structures are covered with growing s, ferns and orchids and are lit up to music in a nightly light show. Looks like a helter skelter. And my dad's take on it.

Speaker 7:

Part of it reminds me of Pink Floyd.

Speaker 1:

I love the different generational takes on what we saw. Myself I thought it looked like the starlight zone in Sonic the Hedgehog, but perhaps I'm showing my age. Either way, they both fell asleep under the lights and it was probably no bad thing. An early start was on the cards. The next day, as we caught the first train headed north to Malaysia, we had to alight to enjoy the novelty of passing through border control on foot. Then we were finally in Malaysia. It was early and we were all tired, but the silence was soon replaced by more pressing questions Do they have coffee, Dad? And where's Thomas the Tank, my son? It dawned on me that, as the middle generation in a multi-gen group, I was now the group leader, Adjusting to my new role with a grown respect for all my prior tour reps. We boarded the five-and-a-half-hour train to Gemas, where we ate street food in the dusty streets, then took the air-conditioned two-and-a-half-hour train ride to Kuala Lumpur, KL, upon which I surprised my dad with some rather wonderful accommodation.

Speaker 8:

This is your living room area. Amazing, your kitchen area. Over here I can see OK.

Speaker 2:

We do have some dishwasher washing machine, the fridge microwave over here. So we have another room.

Speaker 7:

What do you think? Wow, I just don't know when am I.

Speaker 1:

Is this your usual place?

Speaker 7:

to stay down? Not quite.

Speaker 1:

This was a family suite in the Four Seasons KL With two bedrooms and two bathrooms and a communal living space. It was perfect for our family group. Over the next three nights we wallowed in the luxury I'd secured with Dad in mind swimming in the rooftop pool together the first time he'd swum with my son and visiting the city's sights, including Batu Caves, dad and my son's first Hindu temple. Back at the hotel, I spoke to general manager Blaise Montadonas about travelling multi-gen and its popularity.

Speaker 2:

Mainly it's guests from Asia, asian guests and Middle East, but you can start to see guests from Europe as well. You know, and especially after COVID I think it has become more popular because people were separated, you know, and the grandparents separated from their grandchildren, and you can see it more and more In Asia. People find it very normal. So we are always ready in terms of service, helping and things like that. In Europe people will look at you like are you coming with three generations? You know, they like they don't understand because everybody stays with the age group and here. But you know, here it's only when you travel you know I lived many years in Bangkok when you have a party to some people you meet. You have people from 25 to 80 at the same party and because everybody believes that the young generation I can learn from the older, the older said, oh, I need, you know, the pressure from the young. So it's much more open.

Speaker 1:

Blaise said. To increase its popularity, accommodation needs to be built with multi-gen needs in mind.

Speaker 2:

In Europe they think we build a resort for honeymooners or for couples, because nobody would travel with their parents and Asia has been too. So you can see the way they were building. You have two or three rooms together with a patio in the middle, in the middle when you can all meet, and things like that, while when it's done for Europe, it's like you know, it's the same, in fact, when you eat and that's why I don't like European food so much anymore, because when you eat Asian food, you share everything. It's very convivial. You put everything in the middle of the table. When you go back to Europe, everybody has this plate it's my plate, I eat my food and you can look at it and sometimes you say, can I try? While in Asia, no, we put everything and we share. It's a much more convivial society.

Speaker 1:

If KL was all about indulging an older traveller like my dad, then the next stop was firmly about appeasing my son. The city was Ipoh, a place famed for its tin mining in the 1920s, but by the 70s it was left to ruin. Tourism has begun to change that. Used by many as the gateway to the Cameron Highlands, a verdant mountainous area that offers cooler weather in the humidity of summer, complete with tea plantations to visit, waterfalls to walk to and a luxury adults-only resort with geothermally heated hot springs. But we were not there to see any of that. Instead, we were headed to the Lost World Water and Theme Park.

Speaker 5:

So for Lost World site it's more to a nature part and we are specifically. It's more to family and kids. So the parents still can enjoy the view, the nature, yet the kids is still here, can enjoy their time here. So this is our river area.

Speaker 1:

Here in Ipoh, as well as being able to cool off on the many water slides and embrace our inner child, we also got to see my dad and son enjoy their first ever roller coaster. I think my toddler's adventurous side had rubbed off on my 75 year old dad. Seeing my family enjoy each other's company was heart melting and reminded me of being a kid myself. Then, come night time, we finally managed to enjoy one of the benefits touted of multi-gen travel A babysitter in the next room. Thank you, my pleasure, dear. You go and have fun. See you later. After we enjoyed the late night hot springs in Ippo, while my son slept soundly and my dad watched over him, we woke the next morning and jumped on another train bound for Alon Sator, and I checked in with my partner and dad to see how they were finding the trains.

Speaker 7:

It's very comfortable.

Speaker 1:

Thank, you, what did you?

Speaker 7:

expect. I wasn't sure. I mean it's luxury compared to what I expect.

Speaker 1:

Relieved to hear things were going well for everyone, I settled into the train journey ahead. After our immersion into both city and jungle, we needed some time by the sea, and so within three hours, we were off the train and waiting for the ferry to the island of Langkawi, the largest in the northwestern archipelago of the same name, known for its white sand beaches and crystal clear waters. When we set sail, my son began with the question I'd been dreading but secretly expecting. We were there. We'd reached the Isle of Langkawi and another four seasons, this time a family villa on the beach. It offered my dad relaxation, his own space and a plunge pool. He sat reading while I took my partner and son to finally indulge in my perfect activity a cruise through the adjacent mangrove channels at Killim UNESCO Geoforest Park, with a naturalist spotting wildlife and teaching my boy about the natural world.

Speaker 8:

So this is the largest mangrove reserve that we have in Langkawi. It stretches up to 40 kilometres square, so we will board the boat by the beach. We get on the boat, I'll make a first stop here at the island, where I will explain to you more about the geology, and then we continue down to this channel where we travel around 20km through the mangrove.

Speaker 1:

After our wonderful excursion to the mangroves and relaxing stay in Langkawi, we made our way back to the mainland and took a taxi to the station at the Thai border, Padang Basar. Here I took a moment to ask my dad for his take on travelling by public transport through Asia and why he wouldn't have done a trip like this if he was on his own.

Speaker 7:

Probably, to a certain extent, you know circumstances. I mean, I certainly don't plan on not going anywhere. This has been an eye-opener to me. As far as I'm concerned, it might not be this far to travel, but it's good to see how other people and other countries live on a day-to-day basis. I've still got a lot to learn, even at my mature age, should I say.

Speaker 1:

I was heartwarming to know I had opened my dad's eyes up to more adventurous travel and that we'd made it this far with no arguments. Finally, we had one last challenge. Left the sleeper train a 15-hour stretch from here to Bangkok. We watched in awe as the guard came and transformed our seats into very generous beds complete with privacy curtains. Then we turned in. The next morning I asked how did you find Sleepy, roger? Is it your first sleeper asked how did you find sleep in a train? Is it your first sleep in a train? Your first sleep in a train in a while?

Speaker 7:

First sleep in a train in about 50 years. But no, I felt it was quite good. Would you do it again? Yes, would you?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, really. Arriving in Bangkok felt like a true rite of passage. We traversed three countries by train and I half expected Dad to kiss the floor in Pope-like fashion. Certainly, I felt like doing so. We wandered the city's streets where the adventurous nature of the trip had definitely rubbed off on Dad, as he tried street food and ventured to a floating market on his own personal mission to buy souvenirs for his friend. Back home, as we headed to the airport to head home, we chatted about how our first multi-gen trip had gone. Mummy, that was a big holiday. It was a big holiday. Did you enjoy it? Yeah, dad, was it a big holiday for you?

Speaker 7:

Absolutely incredible. I haven't had a holiday like that for years. In fact it's probably I haven't had one at all like for years, in fact there's probably never had one at all like that before, because it was non-stop, which was great, so different in many ways, where we stayed, the people and everything else. But I've got to admit everyone we met was really pleasant. I couldn't criticise anyone, so, no, it was really good.

Speaker 1:

Would you have done something like this if you weren't travelling like this as a multi-generational unit?

Speaker 7:

No, I don't think I would, definitely not.

Speaker 1:

And what was it about travelling as a group of us that made it something you felt like actually I can do?

Speaker 7:

I suppose it's because if I'd felt sort of anxious at any stage at any time, I could mention it and talk about it, which I think is really important, and you could be more honest as well. I mean, we're of the same family but we're so different you know and I think again. I've got to know you better than I had done before, and I don't think I would ever have got to this stage had it not been for this holiday.

Speaker 1:

Well, now we just have to get home and do some washing. Traversing Southeast Asia by train may not be the usual way to do multi-generational travel, but it had made this trip feel like a proper adventure for everyone. We bonded over the sometimes confusing directions and laughed a lot when trying to fit everything and us into the many different configurations of train carriages. I didn't do the kinds of activities I'd ever have chosen if going there on my own, but by booking stops and accommodation with my dad and son in mind, from city sightseeing to water parks, it allowed me to experience the undeniable joy of seeing a place through loved one's eyes and trying things I never would otherwise do, which, if we're honest, is what travel is all about. I have to say a big thank you to the Four Seasons, KL, Langkawi and Bangkok, Chao Phraya River, as well as the Sunway Lost World Hotel in Ipoh and Conrad Centennial, Singapore. Now, by far the most favoured part of this trip, however, had to be the trains. Especially the sleeper in Thailand Never ventured on one in Asia before. Here's this episode's travel hack to make overnight trains a dream form of transport.

Speaker 1:

First of all, the essentials Earplugs and an eye mask. I've found the silicone earplugs that many swimmers and surfers use are the best at blocking noise, and an eye mask silk if you're feeling flush, shields you from the glare of another station stop at 3am and feels cooling on your skin. Next, you also need to be prepared for temperature changes. When you first get on board, in the heat of the day the AC can feel like a godsend, but come the middle of the night and the temperatures can get surprisingly cold. So it's definitely worth packing some pyjamas and a pashmina for an extra layer, and if there's a blanket, don't throw it off the bed. You may well need it later. Similarly, it's worth investing in a small portable fan, which they often sell from the markets around the stations, just in case you feel the heat.

Speaker 1:

Linked to that is power. Even if the train company suggests there is power to a socket by your chair, it so often doesn't work. I'm looking at you Manchester to London line and on trains in Asia there are usually sockets in each cabin, but only a limited number, and the chance I'll be next to your bunk is low at best. So be sure to pick up a power bank and adapter leads. They're essential travel items for train travel. Pick one with two USB port styles. Enough juice for your most power hungry item.

Speaker 1:

As much as the idea of leaning out of a window and picking up your dinner on the move sounds appealing, always bring a backup meal, especially for breakfast. Fried chicken might sound dreamy in the evening. But first thing and remember, you might not always find a vegetarian, vegan, gluten-free option on board. Grab the things you like, such as cereal, bars or pastries, from the convenience shops in the stations before setting off. And take plenty of water too, more than you think you'll need If it's a long journey.

Speaker 1:

Put some serious thought into toiletries. Toilet roll, hand sanitiser, flannel and your toothbrush are all recommended. You don't want to get caught short on the non-stop to Bangkok. And finally, a bit of a curveball a pair of slippers. Really, popping on a pair to stretch your legs is the travel item you never thought you'd need, but I swear by them. You can get some from outdoor companies that don't look too fuddy. Search online for hut or camp slippers. Or, if you happen to stay in a nice hotel, the ones they provide you normally get binned if used, so take them with you. It's good for train travel and the environment.

Speaker 1:

That was my Wander Woman travel hack, the special insight I offer each episode to make sure, wherever your wanderlust takes you, you can go in prepared. Now, speaking of being prepared, it's not only family travel. That can mean a lot more to organize and bracing yourself against arguments or tantrums. The one trip partner that you can count on is your friend, right? Well, don't be so sure. I caught up with best friends Tricia Sail and Cathie Rowe, who won the game show Race Around the World, where they had to travel roughly 15,000 kilometres across Canada without flying, using only the budget of the price of a plane ticket and no phones. Were they still talking in the end?

Speaker 6:

Let's find out so so tell me what made you to sign up for race across the world it's all trisha's fault it's always my fault, usually, yeah.

Speaker 3:

So, um, I'd seen episode one and, sorry, series one and series two. I always call them episodes, series one and series two. Um, and it said if you'd like to apply, apply here. Now Kathy has got me in trouble before because we've done a couple of walking marathons overnight and stuff. And Cathie decided one day to say, oh, look at this, there's a hundred kilometer non-stop walk, let's do it. And so we signed up. So we've done crazy things before. So I thought well, you know she, she's done crazy things, I'll just sign her up. So I signed us up that's.

Speaker 6:

That's how it happened. And then we didn't think for one second that we would be picked. I mean, you don't? You don't think you're going to be picked for a TV show?

Speaker 3:

Middle-aged women from Wales, you just kind of think, nah, we're average people doing average things.

Speaker 6:

So, anyway, we didn't hear anything for two years because of COVID, and then all of a sudden we get a phone call to say we'd like to interview you. So I thought, ooh, I better watch the programme.

Speaker 3:

She'd never seen it. I did do that. Well, it's kind of it's a bit of a programme that you know you go away, you've got got very little budget, you don't have a mobile phone and you go away and race other teams and she's like, oh okay that sounds fun.

Speaker 6:

It did sound amazing, oh my god, that sounds amazing how long for I said a few weeks I didn't. I didn't think that it was going to be eight weeks with no contact at all with my family.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, you did ask. Do I have contact?

Speaker 1:

I went probably so then, at this point, can you explain for those people who haven't seen the show then what is it that you had to do?

Speaker 6:

so the premise of Race Across the World is that you start from point a and you get to point b via different checkpoints. The distance is is roughly 15,000 to 16,000 kilometres, so that's a long way, but the hard thing is that you've got a very limited budget, you're not allowed to take your own money or your own bank cards and you have no modern technology. So no telephone, no access to the internet, no GPS, no, yeah, no GPS, and you literally have to travel to these points using the money that you're given and your wits, and you're given a map of the country but you don't know where you're going until you get there.

Speaker 3:

So we didn't know until three hours before we got on the flight to go to Canada that we were going to Canada. So we had no idea. So you can't plan anything, no, and then the money that they give you is the same as it would cost for a flight to get to these points. Yeah, so you kind of think, oh, that's a lot of money when you're given it at the front, but then you kind of break it down and it really is.

Speaker 6:

I think we worked out that it was about $125 a day.

Speaker 1:

But, that has to be for food, accommodation, travel and anything else you need like an alarm clock or cards or coffee. And how would you have travelled prior to this? Have you been on a lot of holidays together? What would be your normal where you've been? Yeah, well, we've done a couple of holidays together. What would be your normal where you're?

Speaker 6:

better, yeah, well, yeah well we've done a couple of holidays together, we've done cruises, we've done Portugal, yeah, um, but I wouldn't say I'd ever traveled before. So I mean, mine and my husband's default is to literally escape for two weeks to a beach and read books and drink cocktails.

Speaker 3:

Um, so this experience was completely new to me whereas my, my holiday is go somewhere, hire a car, travel around the area in a couple. Obviously I can't drive, but my hubby can. Um, travel around the area, see stuff, do stuff and not relax and just keep going, keep going, keep going and has it changed the way that you guys travel?

Speaker 1:

obviously I heard at the beginning the kind of holidays you do before. Has it changed how you do?

Speaker 6:

just a little bit yeah, so before we we'd gone out, trish mentioned that you know we we were up for all sorts of different challenges, um, so obviously because of Covid, we couldn't do what we'd wanted to do. But, uh, when we came back we got back from canada. Um, in the beginning, of july. July the third we flew back, yeah, but we finished on canada day. We did finish on canada day, um, and then, mid-september, we flew to peru and we did the four-day inca trail to Machu Picchu, which was spectacular, it was amazing.

Speaker 6:

And then last year we did a five-day trek on the Great Wall of China.

Speaker 3:

And then I went and Cathie left me.

Speaker 6:

I don't know what you're talking about now.

Speaker 3:

You left me to go and explore, didn't you? And I went to the terracotta warriors, which is something that, um, I've got a list of stuff I need to do before I lose my sight, and terracotta warriors was top of my list, um, so yeah, I went to go and explore the terracotta warriors and zian and it was just amazing it was amazing and next year we are hoping, fingers crossed, yeah, to do a.

Speaker 6:

Tandem cycle track through Vietnam and Cambodia but we have to now take Cathie's husband. Oh he has to come now.

Speaker 1:

Bless him, have they said. Hang on, you can't always just travel together. Well, in fairness.

Speaker 6:

Gareth has done everything with us since.

Speaker 7:

Not everything.

Speaker 6:

No, he didn't come back to Canada with us. No, not everything. No, you didn't come back to Canada with us no but we we're sort of aiming. What we'd love to do is to go back and revisit the places, because we raced through it, we didn't actually get to see it. So, for instance, gareth said to me so you've seen Lake Louise. Then I went no, we stood in the car park for five minutes trying to get a lift.

Speaker 6:

It's a lovely car park but so we haven't seen all of those amazing places that we were literally head down. We need a lift. Yeah, we'd love to go back, wouldn't we, and really have some time to see those places and not spend so much time in gas stations yeah, yeah, I mean they are lovely gas stations and the people are really lovely in them.

Speaker 3:

I don't really want to be spending about two weeks in a gas station no, it would be nice to just fill up our own car and go.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, actually yeah, and you're, you really love driving I love driving canada probably I mean not in western canada, perhaps because you know it's probably better to hire a car or an rv.

Speaker 3:

Oh, I'd love to do that love to do that. That would be so much fun so thelma and louise, definitely without the killing spree and the bit of the end no, we're not doing a bit of the end.

Speaker 1:

Do you have any top tips for traveling with a friend?

Speaker 3:

take your best friend don't don't take a friend, that's just a friend. Take your best friends, um, because what you don't want to do is have that friend that you kind of think, oh, they really annoy me a little bit, because if they really annoy you a little bit and you're there 24, 7, they're going to annoy you a lot, um. So take your best friends. Or I, as I say, the tonic to the gin, or the bubbles of of the tonic, um, or my guide dog I would say if you're going to travel with a friend or with anybody, discuss what you want to do first.

Speaker 6:

So get a map out and do it on paper. Do it on paper. We're so reliant on put your phone down, yeah, but but we're so reliant on google telling us what to do. Get a paper map and look at where you want to go. You know, get a guide book.

Speaker 3:

That's your planning in you, you see yeah, but I think you need to go, you know, get a guidebook. There's your planning in you, you see.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, but I think you need to have a rough plan. Being on the race, we couldn't have a plan, but if you've got an idea of the area that you're going to sit down with a map and go, actually that looks really good and have a rough idea.

Speaker 3:

It's like the dog coming out in you.

Speaker 6:

Woof! Just talk about the two you know between you. What do you want to see? What do you want to achieve? Because if you're trying to do that on the go and you become indecisive, you're going to waste time and then you'll get frustrated. So sit down and have a look at it.

Speaker 3:

But don't plan it to the eighth degree.

Speaker 6:

No, don't plan it. Oh, we'll go here this day and we'll go, just let it flow. But have a rough idea of the area and what there is to see there. That would be my tip.

Speaker 1:

What about any tension if there's an argument building I don't know, because we didn't have that we didn't really have. That, did we no?

Speaker 3:

I think if you go with somebody and you have a little bit of tension, you need to discuss it rather than let it bubble and boil, because if it does that, you're going to ruin the whole holiday.

Speaker 1:

That was Race Around the World winners Tricia Sail and Cathie Rowe, two besties who said yes to adventure and have never looked back. It certainly was the case for my multi-generational trip across Asia, and I hope hearing about both trips has been inspirational for you too. And speaking of inspiration, how about some ideas for the perfect trip that's virtually made for group travel? It's coming right up in this episode's Top 10. At 10, it's the classic multi-gen trip the ski holiday. You can share a chalet, exploit your parents for babysitting Sorry, I mean offer the gift of time with their grandchildren and all come back together for an evening meal, games or an inappropriate amount of local liquor. Ski resorts are also adept in finding activities for non-skiers and young children, whether snowshoeing or tobogganing.

Speaker 1:

At nine, it's one of my favourites the cycle trip. Now, you may not want to sell it quite like that, think more adventure with thrills and hopefully not too many spills, but the practicalities for appealing to several generations really make sense. The advent of the e-bike has democratised cycling, making it widely available. Plus, there are trailers, kid seats and the like, usually easily rented. Just be sure to go somewhere where there's escape routes, ie buses and trains for those who want an easier life. At eight. I know from experience it's go multi-country. Mum and dad may love the oompah band in the Bavarian Beer Hall, but the kids will enjoy the mountain lakes of Austria more. The promise of something appealing across the border keeps everyone going At seven to the pub. Well, sort of In-to-in hikes, such as pilgrim trails or well-trodden footpaths such as the National Trails of England and Wales, means transport links are readily available for tired legs who want to sit a stage out.

Speaker 1:

At six it's the perennial classic, the campsite. You grab the bell tent to give nana and granddad a bit of space and something more solid A small pop-up number for the older kids who love to be in their own tent with friends, and a basic but quirky option, definitely with a blackout section for you and the very little ones. Campsites often have a restaurant and sometimes entertainment on site too, to keep everyone amused and make mealtimes a doddle too, particularly in Europe. In at five it's time to slow down with a boat rental. Whether it's meandering the Grand Union at four miles an hour or cruising the Canal du Midi or River Shannon, the slow pace appeals to all generations. Plus, everyone can have a go at captaining the ship.

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In at fourth place is a cruise. And it's not all the garish behemoths that you need to look to Think expedition, specialist and hybrid ships, which are a thing now, with science labs and kids clubs for kids. River cruises can also be great too, as they offer lots of stops minus the rough seas. No matter how big the ship, you'll usually find a cinema, a play area and a space to run around or hide away. Plus, the all-inclusive price tag can be super helpful with your family budget. At three channel, luxury Splashing out on a villa with a pool could be key to taking different generations on holiday. Trust me, it always amazes me how long a child and a pensioner will stay entertained in a pool on a warm day. Some complexes with villas will also have activities, whether that's a nearby mangrove forest or all-singing, all-dancing water park.

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At two, it's the humble hostel. I love a hostel, especially with kids. YHA in England and Wales often offer exclusive hire for the entire building. I've done it and it's a great adventure, with plenty of room, ample cooking facilities and a bargain price. The other thing I love about hostels at any time is that you're pretty much guaranteed to find some like-minded friends, no matter what your age, whether 8 or 80. And at number one, it's the train. Everyone loves a decent train journey. Jump on a long-distance train from Paris, bangkok or Bogna to well somewhere else, and the sense of Phileas Fogg style adventure brims up in all generations. Take a good book, plenty of games and maybe some noise cancelling headphones. That was my regular top 10. I hope it's helped give you some ideas for taking your tribe away. Whether they be friends or family, enjoy.

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Now, one thing you will need to be sure of, whoever you travel with, even if going solo, is dressing right for humid conditions. I know that for me that was key on my multi-gen trip, especially when lugging around all the additional bags and child paraphernalia. That's why this month I offer up some gear tips for dressing for humidity. It's not all sunscreen and shades. When you arrive somewhere humid, that is, somewhere not only warm but sticky and damp it's vital that you are wearing clothes that help you feel as comfy as possible. But what does that look like?

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First up, think colour. I know that black is slimming and my favourite colour, but really in heat it's all about neutral colours. Think whites, beiges and anything on the lighter end of the spectrum. Quite simply, they reflect the heat and keep you cooler. Then think fabrics. Outdoor gear is pretty good for this. From being able to wick or move sweat away from the body to being equipped with anti-smell technology, it can mean you're able to re-wear something without offending anyone, including yourself. Linen is a great option too for this, including loose trousers, dresses and shirts. It looks smart too, so it's pretty versatile.

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Next up, don't overlook the undergarment. Pants or knickers should fit well, with no rubbing points. Don't go for cotton, as it will get wet with sweat and stay that way. Instead, think natural fabrics like bamboo or lightweight merino or modal. Active underwear made with recycled polyester is worth considering too, as they often have cooling tech and dry quick if you need to wash them. Footwear should be breathable with good straps. Sports sandals by tiva are ones I personally use. No sponsorship or gifting here, just my faves.

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Hats are a must to keep the sun off your head, and a pashmina or even a handheld umbrella can be a great way to keep your cool, with the latter being a good rainy weather friend too. Afternoon storms are very common in humid places and, speaking of rain, always go poncho over rainwear, trust me. Finally, one for my fellow wonder women, or wonder man too. No judgment here. The maxi dress is your friend. I resisted this fashion piece for years, but finally relented and now love it, especially after a swim. Who needs a dry robe? That was my regular gear geek out, helping you keep cool even in the hottest climates. Now, speaking of cool, my next guest is one very cool customer.

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Ernie Walker is chief archaeologist at , a cultural centre on the outskirts of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, that is also home to Canada's longest archaeological dig, as well as hundreds of First Nations artefacts and cultural events. In 2019, after a 150-year absence due to hunting, the bison finally returned to this site and, in doing so, so unearthed something rather special. I caught up with Ernie in his lab, hence the temperature control device. You can hear whirring in the background. Apologies, to find out more.

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The elders always wanted to have bison, but we just didn't have the financial resources or the infrastructure to get them Until 2019, we had a private donation and so we had the money and we built these fabulous facilities to manage these animals. We started out we were just looking for big brown animals with four legs and some horns, but as it turned out, we've got some very special animals. But as it turned out, we've got some very special animals. Now you've got to understand. At 1600 AD, so 400 years ago, there were between 26 and 30 million bison on the plains of North America. That's the estimate. Between 1872 and 1885, there were less than 1,000. Just a catastrophic drop. It's not a good story and so we don't need to get into all of that. But 1,000 animals, let's say 1,200 animals in 1885.

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The animals that got came from the last two progenitor herds in the United States, the last of the American bison, wow. So one group came from, descended from a group in western Montana, USA, and the other group, the really special group, came from Yellowstone National Park in the United States and they're exceedingly difficult to get those animals, so you can't get the genetics. Yeah, and we were able to get both. How? So well, we we got. The one group came through the government, the other group, um, we were dealing with private bison ranchers in the united states and that's how we were able to get. It was a miracle. I mean, uh, when we brought them across the american border, the media were already waiting for us. So it was that special and they are as close to animals that haven't been seen on the plains in 150 years. Their genetic pedigree is so special. Now the rest of the story is we brought them here in December of 2019, and the following year, august of 2020, we had the animals were up in a pasture where they water and they wallow, meaning they give themselves dust baths, they roll around and they knocked all the vegetation down and I was up there watching them and I looked down at my boots on the ground and there was a piece of a boulder protruding through the earth.

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They had knocked all the earth off the top of it and there was a groove running over the top of the stone and I thought, well, it was just old implement damage or something. When I brushed it off, no, it was a petroglyph, it was a piece of rock art. These grooves had been carved into the rock to mimic the ribs of an animal, and running through the middle of the boulder was a horned spirit figure, a little spirit figure. That boulder is on display in the exhibit hall. In the ensuing week and a half, those bison found three more, for a total of four. What you need to know is 40 years earlier, nearly 40 years earlier, I found a bison jump, an escarpment over which animals were stampeded as a method of procurement, and it's just below the building, right adjacent on the pathway where these petroglyphs were found, so they're associated with it.

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Yeah.

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In 1982, I found that bison jump and it's the archaeologist's prerogative to name it. Bison jump, and it's the archaeologist prerogative to name it. Yeah, I was trying to choose names that I thought would be thematically relevant for a park, so I named that site newa siniac, which in the cree language means four stones, and 40 years later the bison found four petroglyphs wow isn't that strange that's, what was that moment like, when you suddenly went from thinking oh, it's just a groove to a petroglyph.

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Oh, I was astounded, and even better when we were excavating around the boulder to see how big it was. We came across a stone knife, a flaked stone knife. And when I measured the width of the cutting edge of the stone knife, it's the same width as the grooves on the top of the rock. So, de facto, that's the implement that made those grooves.

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So you didn't just find the petroglyphs, but the tool that made the petroglyphs, that's exactly right, and whoever did that 1,400 years ago left their business card there. What about? You didn't even want to tell anyone when you first found it. You were like this is going to sound made up. I know, I know, I know Exactly right, exactly right and what was the feeling within obviously the people here when that happened.

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Well, I think everyone was amazed. The elders were, you know, they were kind of wondering. This is a really strange story.

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Yeah.

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But yeah, I mean, things like that happen at . That's not the only example. Good things, wondrous things happen here, but I thought I would tell you that one because it was bison-related.

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Well, and the fact that it probably would never have been found if they hadn't have. No, not a way. There's no way it would have been. No one would have looked there.

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In particular, it wasn't even exposed. They had to rub all the dirt off the top, so it wouldn't get exposed.

Speaker 1:

Oh, so there wasn't even just a boulder there.

Speaker 4:

You didn't even know, that's right, exactly right.

Speaker 1:

Wow, so they're sort of archaeologists as well.

Speaker 4:

I think they were just staying there, happy to be here.

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And then? So what's the best thing people can do to help with projects like this then do you think Tourists I'm talking about?

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Oh, you know, it started as just a little ranch north of Saskatoon, here north of the city, and the old rancher was very reclusive and he was a curmudgeon so nobody came here. It was the loneliest place in the world. And now you transcend, 40 years later, and we're trying for a UNESCO World Heritage designation, inviting the world to come to our doorstep and see this. I think what could visitors do?

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I guess visit yeah and, you know, encourage, Because this is not a government facility, this is not a government park at any level national, provincial or state or local. This is the community did this. So I'm thinking maybe is a beacon for these kinds of developments elsewhere where the community said this is important, archaeology is important and there's a practical reason for doing it and it has. Our indigenous people are part of it, obviously, and have been all these years, so good things can happen. You know, the world we live in is often pretty hard and harsh and I see this as a total success story.

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That was this episode's Hidden Hero, the person in travel doing incredible work behind the scenes. I would, of course, have interviewed the bison too, but they were feeling pretty shy on my visit and I couldn't quite find them. I love that we began this episode with a family group, moved to a friendship group and have now landed on a perfect partnership between humans and wildlife. I hope you've enjoyed the journey, because already it's nearly the end of the episode, so time for me to share with you my utterly incredible Wonder Woman of the month. I hope you've enjoyed what you've heard. Please do subscribe so you never miss an episode, and please, please, please do leave a review. It means so very much. You can follow me on Twitter and Instagram @ Phoebe R Smith. Go to my website, phoebe-smith. com, where you can sign up for my occasional newsletter and, of course, send me a message. Now this episode, we head to the Nile, where a woman who escaped life in a harem is embarking on a quest to discover the river's source. We first join our heroine deep in the Ottoman Empire in the year 1858. She's at a slave auction in Vidin, a place now in Bulgaria, and she's being sold to the highest bidder. She is just 14 years old, a bidding war takes place between the Pasha of Vidin and an English explorer known as Samuel Baker. He was there on a hunting trip with his friend, Maharaja Duleep Singh, where he stumbled upon the sight. Curious, he watched and was immediately taken with the girl. When he couldn't outbid his rival, he bribed the guards and rescued the girl from a life of servitude. Little did she know how much her life would change that day. It wasn't the first time that Florence Baker had been in a precarious situation. Born in Transylvania, which was then in Hungary around 1841, in 1849 her parents and brother were brutally murdered by Romanian revolutionaries right in front of her aged eight. She fled with the Hungarian army to Turkey. Little is known about those lost years, but it is thought that she was brought into a harem in the Ottoman Empire, escaped and was then sold in this very slave auction.

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But from her fateful meeting with this man, her life took a bizarre twist. While we can't overlook the questionable power dynamic in their relationship, he definitely opened up a world of opportunities for her. Quite literally, an insatiable adventurer, Samuel Baker, like many Victorian explorers, was obsessed with finding the source of the Nile. And so, with Florence, set off to Ethiopia and Sudan to continue the mission. Somewhere along the way the two became a couple and together they travelled up the Nile to Gondokoro in present-day South Sudan.

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An etching from an 1890 book shows Florence, dressed in demure Victorian clothes and a wide-brimmed hat, riding a stomping camel, with Samuel ironically on another camel just behind. As such, it was Florence and then Samuel Baker who were the first Europeans to lay eyes on Murchison Falls and Lake Albert in what is now Uganda, part of a complex system that feeds into the Nile. Baker named the falls where the Victorian Nile squeezes through a seven-metre gap after the then-president of the Royal Geographical Society in London, Roderick Murchison. During the trip, Florence, with her long blonde hair, earned the nickname of Anyadwe, or Daughter of the Moon. They returned to the UK and were secretly married on 4 November 1865 in London. Samuel was knighted a year later and she became Lady Baker. Together they wowed Victorian society with their daring tales, with the notable exception of Queen Victoria who correctly suspected they had been intimate before marriage and expelled them from the court.

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The second great African expedition saw them travel to Sudan in an effort to suppress the slave trade as passionate abolitionists and, of course, florence having first-hand experience of the trade. They were involved with several skirmishes with the small army they had under their control. During one battle in Massindi, florence was part of it as a medic, but clearly prepared as she carried two rifles, a pistol, a bottle of brandy and, for unknown reasons, two brollies. For four years they tried to eliminate the slave trade work carried on by their successor. But their time adventuring was over. With her husband, she retired to a small estate in Sanford Orley in Devon.

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While Samuel Baker's exploits were well known, especially at the time, those of Florence were not. Samuel, however, always recognised her as the source of his success and the joy of his life. He died in 1893 and Florence, aged 74, in 1916. And Florence, aged 74, in 1916. The story of an orphan sold as a slave, explorer of the Nile, fighter against slavery and a very proper Victorian lady, is rarely told, and this is why I had to tell it and why Florence Baker is my well-deserving Wander Woman of the Month. That was Florence Baker, our incredible Wander Woman of the Month. What a life she had, one of escape, adventure, campaigning to help end the slave trade, and all that with brandy and brollies strapped to her torso.

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Tune in to the next episode for more tales of female kick-assery. In the next episode of the Wander Woman podcast: Got Grass? I'll be explaining why asking this simple question could be the key to saving the Maldives and the planet. I'll also be chatting to bushcraft expert Ray Mears on the power of sound, on our travels, meeting the woman who is undertaking an ambitious rewilding project in South Africa and talking the most endangered critters on the planet and where you can find them. See you next time, Wander Woman out. The Wander Woman podcast is written and edited by me, Phoebe Smith. The producer and writer of additional material is Daniel Nielson. The logo was designed by John Summerton. A final thanks to my family and all the people we met on our journey and were willing to talk to us. It's because of you that this podcast is able to happen at all.