Wander Woman: A Travel Podcast
The monthly Wander Woman Podcast frequently charts in 'Travel and Places' in over 147 countries around the world. It is the first travel podcast to take on a magazine style - rather than the format of just an interview – and has been listened to and downloaded everywhere from the UK to Australia and beyond, by hundreds of thousands of people. It has been selected as “Best of” travel podcasts by The Telegraph, The Guardian and The i newspaper, Globetrender and Tech Times - to name a few.
Every episode, award-winning broadcaster, travel writer, author and photographer Phoebe Smith offers a behind the scenes journey to a different destination which features interviews with locals, audio clips and vivid descriptions to make the listener feel like they are there too - without having to leave home.
The main ‘destination’ story weaves together her passion for finding off-the-beaten track places, undertaking quirky and unusual activities, discovering wild spaces in unlikely mass market destinations, watching wildlife and meeting the unsung heroes behind conservation efforts.
Additionally the Wander Woman Podcast’s regular features a celebrity interview; Best Travel Gear for a life on the road; Travel Hack of the Month; Top 10 in Travel; Hidden Hero; and the Wander Woman of the Month - the traveller whose name is lost in the history books.
Wherever you find yourself - come wander with her…
Wander Woman: A Travel Podcast
Between a Rock and a Hard Place
All across Britain, in some of the wildest places you can find, is a network of mountain huts - called bothies. But unlike shelters found in the rest of the world, these were never built for walkers. Former schoolhouses, farmsteads, gamekeepers lodges, coastguards lookouts and miners bunkhouses, there are around 100 buildings (across Scotland, England and Wales) left open for walkers and climbers to use - free of charge. For the last 60 years they have been in the care of the Mountain Bothies Association - an organisation who maintain and look after them and are funded by donation and run by volunteers. To celebrate their diamond anniversary, adventurer Phoebe Smith (who wrote the first ever guidebook to bothies 10 years ago) takes her mum friend Ellie to stay in her first one and speaks to the MBA's chair Simon Birch about what changes have occurred over the last 60 years.
Also coming up:
- Octogenarian publisher Hilary Bradt discusses how travel has changed since her first adventures in 1969
- Travel Hack: How to make friends on the road - safely
- Top 10 places to escape the crowds around the world
- Meet Katie Wignall, the guide telling the stories of forgotten women in London
- All the kit you need for wild swimming
- Nan Shepherd, author of The Living Mountain is our Wander Woman of the Month
SPECIAL OFFER: Use code WanderWoman at the checkout on the Cicerone website to get 15% off the Book of the Bothy and all of their guidebooks.
www.Phoebe-Smith.com; @PhoebeRSmith
On this month's Wander Woman podcast. "So is this the totality of your kit A hot water bottle, a vintage book, a candle mint cake, an Opinel knife, a Laplandish salmi bowl. As the organisation that looks after Britain's mountain hut, aka Bothys, turns 60, I take my friend Ellie, a fellow mum outdoors woman but newbie to winter walking and camping, to experience her first one. I also speak to octogenarian traveller and guidebook publisher, Hilary Bratt, to talk risk-taking in travel and business.
Speaker 4:"For some reason I said I know 10 uses of condoms. Now I can't actually now explain why I said that, but I think I was feeling frivolous.
Speaker 1:And to celebrate International Women's Month, I'm joined by guide Katie Wignall on a walking tour of Green Park in London to discover the women who blaze their own trails in the landscape of gentlemen's clubs.
Speaker 5:"She got this nickname as the White Mouse because she was so hard to capture and was always evading and making her way out of things.
Speaker 1:Also coming up: how to make friends on the road safely in this month's travel hack, in my top ten, I continue the celebration of more wild and lonely places with the best places to escape the crowds around the world. In my regular gear chat, I help you with the essentials for wild swimming. Finally, I'll be revealing this episode's Wander Woman of the Month, the traveller whose name is lost in the history books. You're listening to the Wander Woman podcast, an audio travel magazine, with me, adventurer Phoebe Smith, exploring off the beaten track destinations, wild spaces, wildlife encounters and the unsung heroes behind conservation efforts. Come wander with me...
Speaker 4:"okay, moment of truth.
Speaker 4:Ellie, we've reached the potty great lingy shed. I'm gonna let you do honours of knocking on the door. Oh, I know.
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Now open it." What you're listening to is the moment, the anticipatory few seconds that anyone who's ever stayed in a bothy that is, a mountain hut here in the UK experiences every time they reach their resting place for the night. After hours of walking, often in the dark, like we were on a cold February evening, you reach a small building, or wooden shed in the case of this particular hut called Great Lingi. You stand, you knock and you open the door to see if anyone else has beaten you to it. Will someone have taken the best, or indeed all of the sleeping spots? There's only ever one way to find out. Tonight, me and Ellie are in luck. We are the first and so far only people crazy enough to come on an evening when the Met Office were predicting temperatures of minus 10 degrees C and gale force winds. But before we go any further, perhaps it would be useful to describe your typical Bothy spelt B-O-T-H-Y.
Speaker 1:The easiest way to describe bothies is simply a stone tent. They may look like country cottages from the outside, pretty enough with a ramshackle type of charm to earn them a spot on a chocolate box. But inside it's a different story, With no gas, no electricity, no running water, no bathroom, no beds and certainly no TV. These are as basic a shelter as they come, but it's amazing what a few candles and good cheer can do to a place. In terms of size, bothies range from two-person shed-like affairs right up to multi-bedroom house-like structures with several fireplaces and even kitchen areas.
Speaker 1:There isn't a standard Bothy. They will constantly surprise you, but therein lies their charm. Best of all, they are left unlocked on a trust basis for wilderness lovers to stay in free of charge, so that we can linger in the places we love so well, free of charge, so that we can linger in the places we love so well. Looking after them is an organisation called the Mountain Bothies Association, which this year in 2025, turns 60. This is Simon Birch, the chair of the association, with a little background on how it all started.
Speaker 6:The MBA started in, I suppose, 1965, when a group of people got together and decided that they'd have a more orderly approach to maintaining the buildings that they were looking after. I think for years they'd been going around the highlands and coming across derelict farmhouses, mostly going to knock on the owner's door and saying would you mind if we put a new roof on? Or do something like that.
Speaker 1:That's right. bothies, unlike mountain huts in other countries around the world, were never built for the purpose of walkers and adventure seekers to have nights out in the wild. They all had former uses, from gamekeepers' cottages to miners' bunkhouses, coastguard lookouts and old school rooms. In short, they served a utilitarian purpose. However, when they were no longer needed, these buildings were left to fall into disrepair. They were used informally by hikers, cyclists and climbers after the World Wars, when recreational activities grew in popularity and hard-fought rights for access were won. Then a man called Bernard Heath had an idea to start a volunteer organisation that would repair and maintain them for everyone.
Speaker 6:And they kept it very secret too, because they didn't want people who weren't members to know about these bodies, because A they wanted to keep them to themselves and B they didn't think that the owners would want lots of people tramping on their land to go to them, so there was a list, but but it was kept secret.
Speaker 6:It has confidential written all across it. It's a different world really. And then the thing gradually grew and you know it sort of became a charity, became a limited company and of course people can't keep secrets like this. Because there's so many people out in the hills and I think it was in the 1990s, they decided to have a website and make it public and lots of people still don't like that. I come across people on the hills who say, oh, the worst thing that happened with the MBA. But of course you know it's on other people's websites, it's on Facebook pages, it's in books.
Speaker 1:I have to point out here that the mention of books is perhaps aimed at me. In 2015, as a celebration of their 50-year history, I wrote the first ever guidebook to British bothies. It was called Book of the Bothy. I wanted to celebrate this wonderful British institution which, as you'll hear, has continued to grow.
Speaker 6:It's very quirky. I mean, at the moment we've got 105 Bothys. We own two which were given to us in people's wills when they died and they passed them to us, but all the others are owned by other people. We don't have leases which are property leases, we just have maintenance leases to maintain them. So ultimately, we could actually lose all our bothies within about three to six months if the owners decided to take them back.
Speaker 1:Thankfully, landowners seem happy with the arrangement, and so, to celebrate the 10-year anniversary of my book and 60 years of the MBA, I decided to pay one of the newer buildings a visit Great Lingy Hut. Originally used by miners at the nearby, now-disused Carrock Mine, which dates back to the 16th century, it was relocated to its higher location on the moor where it now stands as a shooting box. During the 1960s, the hut was leased to the Friends Quaker Boarding School in Wigton as an outdoor base and was fitted with a sleeping platform. When the school closed in 1984, the hut became an open shelter and eventually, the Lake District National Park took responsibility for its maintenance before handing it over to the MBA in 2017. And it's this hut that we now have for ourselves. But we're jumping ahead. First, let's join me and Ellie when I head to her house to pack for our diamond anniversary adventure and discover that she's not quite got the gear that she needs. I can see something on this table that looks beautiful.
Speaker 4:That is non-essential. I'm not sure how useful this is going to be to navigate.
Speaker 6:Is it this? Yeah, can I just say for the benefit of the listeners, I'm holding a vintage book, can I just say this is a 1950s guidebook. It may not look essential, but it would be very pleasing as a prop in the bothy and also it would be something to read.
Speaker 4:It's something to burn if we start experiencing hypothermia. That's its best use from this perspective.
Speaker 6:It does have some really nice black and white pictures of women standing by lakes, looking happy, but, to be fair, it is the summer in most pictures, it's not february. Yeah, yeah, it also has nuggets of wisdom in there like I want to hear some. Okay, I've actually written it down oh do it?
Speaker 6:you would question this as a non-essential item and it says note compass bearings must be taken at the first sign of mist, not after the mist has formed I mean you can take that information with you without the book, that's true, and if it was misty I wouldn't actually be able to read the book. Do you think that should? I put that in a maybe pile?
Speaker 1:maybe to no. And it went on. I mean, I'm looking at a lantern that looks like it's yeah.. It literally is yeah.
Speaker 6:Now can I just say I am bringing this, but I will obviously carry it and I can just turn it on my backpack because this will be cozy I mean it reminds me of the miners who would have mined in the area nearby Lingy Hut, yes, which they did stay in. And it will be kind of like twinkling and glowing and I'm not obviously taking a litre of lamp oil. Oh, thank goodness, I'll obviously use this little funnel thing before we go.
Speaker 4:I might take this, because I could see how later on that could be mistaken for water and cause a few problems.
Speaker 1:No, I mean that lantern is non-essential, but pleasingly vintage and then, so is this the totality of your kit a hot water bottle a vintage book, a kendal mint cake, an opinal knife uh, can I just say, a Laplandish Sami bowl this is literally hand carved from birch. Yeah, I know what it is. I've seen them, I have them.
Speaker 6:They're not for bothying, but look how nice it is.
Speaker 1:Yep, the motto for this trip was increasingly becoming "Aesthetically pleasing but fucking freezing. Finally, with the vintage lantern 1950s guidebook and beeswax candles in tow Yep, she bought them. We were on our way, headed to Cumbria. It was nearly dark when we arrived and the rain had been falling all day. And beeswax candles in tow yep, she bought them. We were on our way, headed to Cumbria. It was nearly dark when we arrived and the rain had been falling all day.
Speaker 6:How are you feeling about the bothy? I'm excited, I'm positive, I'm faking it till I make it. No, I'm joking. No, I think I mean we can see it. It's within vision, so it can't be that I I think I mean we can see it. It's within vision, so it can't be that. I mean it is high up, probably about an hour or so to walk. It's on the horizon, in the far distance, a tiny little bump of hope.
Speaker 1:I'm excited, I'm ready to rock and roll. We began our ascent alongside the river, tracing it by moonlight until it became too dark to leave our head torches off. We reached a crossing point over the water where what should have been an easy stride was to become a leap of faith over a torrent. I checked in with Ellie once we'd made it to the other side.
Speaker 4:Okay, we've got to go up a little bit more before the path turns right here. How are you feeling?
Speaker 6:I'm feeling good.
Speaker 6:I'm feeling like I did underestimate how stream-like the path would be given the rain and when we were like crossing an actual waterfall but once inside the scary river crossing became a distant memory. Often there's a stove in Bothies for heat, but this one has none. Instead, we we lit candles, made hot water bottles, warm food on my camping stove and settled into Bothy life reading entries from the Bothy book, the visitor's book that everyone who calls in can write in 10pm.
Speaker 4:It will soon be the 21st. The wind is at 25 miles an hour-ish, started with starlit skies. The clouds engulfed the skies and gave a sense of the impending doom as I arrived at the hut. Up early tomorrow to face a mighty storm, head down for a good sleep for now. Ok. They were really worried about the weather today.
Speaker 1:Luckily for us, we were protected from further rain and wind. Cosy in our hut and dry clothes the beauty of even the humblest of Bothies it was time to turn in. Well night, Ellie.
Speaker 6:Night Phoebe. Sleep well. It's nice hearing the wind.
Speaker 1:Well, the wind outside... And then, pretty soon before we knew it, phone RINGS. I fired up the camping stove and before long we were supping coffee, eating shakshuka with boiled eggs Ellie had got from her hens before we left and congratulating ourselves on the despite the forecast that said, 0% chance of cloud-free summits views down the valley.
Speaker 6:You wouldn't get bored of the view, would you? Because it's changing so quickly, because it's so windy, the clouds are kind of like Well, look, the sun above the cloud, the low cloud.
Speaker 4:Is that rain or snow coming? It's beautiful.
Speaker 6:Whatever it is, it's very pretty. I think we're lucky, actually that. Do you know what? I'd rather have a sky like this than a sky that was just blue, wouldn't you? Oh? 100% Warm feet, hot food on a fell, on a fell in cumbria during winter such luxury did you before this trip did you think
Speaker 6:this was possible? Like how much did you know about bothies pre- me?
Speaker 6:I've done a lot of bothy research and fantasizing, have you? Yeah, I've got folders of bothy pictures, but um, I have to say I wouldn't have thought to come in February.
Speaker 4:I would assume it would just be too cold and miserable yeah, which is great that lots of people think that that's how we've got it to ourselves - thanks to your four season sleeping bag, you know what I love is the sense of achievement, because it's like we've got ourselves up here yeah and you know why?
Speaker 4:this is why I love arriving at night. Yeah, I love arriving in the dark. And then you have this I call it the reveal moment in the morning, where you go oh, this is where we are. No, we're here, it wasn't just a dream. Yeah, to be fair, I feel the most well rested as a mother of a four-year-old. The most well rested I have done in years I've had a really good night's sleep, yeah like I feel I've worked a bit refreshed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's not just the caffeine. After multiple cups of coffee, we began packing up leave, but not before Ellie wrote her own entry in the Bothy Book, becoming part of this wonderful British tradition.
Speaker 6:Bothy Book Entry February 2025. Phoebe and Ellie, we hiked up in the dark, having abandoned our menfolk and offspring, A more than comfortable night in Lingy Hut. We feasted on middle-class meals, had hot water bottles and enjoyed the peace and tranquility. The wind whistled around the outside of the structure and we thought just for a moment that we heard the distant tapping of a flint napper. Leigh, the bothy mouse kept us company, but no real mice were seen. Thanks to Phoebe's professional kit, we were cosy. If anything, we were too hot. The take-home message" what are you trying to prove? We're not in the army? Tagine for supper, aubergine shakshuka with free-range eggs from my hens for Bobby. Food is the best, Thanks to the MOs and the NBA. We loved our stay and we will be back.
Speaker 1:That was me and Ellie in February, experiencing her first mountain bothy, and for those of you who are curious, yes, she did carry and light the lamp and it looked beautiful, but we then had to turn it off quickly and leave it outside because it started to give off an odd smell. Still, she got a great photo. Seriously, though, I love taking new people to wild places and staying in mountain huts for the first time. It allows me the opportunity to see it through their eyes, which makes it feel all brand new again for me too. I hope you've been inspired to go and seek one out and, if you do, please consider joining the MBA. For just £25 a year, you can help ensure these buildings allow people to enjoy the wild in relative comfort, remained for generations to come. Also, consider picking up a copy of my book Book of the Bothy quote, Wander Woman, at the checkout on the Cicerone website and get 15% off that and all their guidebooks. Happy reading and planning. Now.
Speaker 1:I took my friend Ellie with me, who I've known for about six months. We met through our kids going to the same preschool, but it's not necessarily as easy to make friends on the road, and do it safely, as you have no sense of their background and who they really are. But that doesn't mean that you can't form companionships. That's why this episode, I decided to dedicate this episode's travel hack to making friends when travelling, how to make friends on the road. Yep, that is this episode's travel hack of the month. Now some of you listening right now will be thinking just go up and talk to someone who looks very much not like a serial killer. Others will probably be sweating at the prospect of approaching a friendly, looking stranger and trying to make friends. Most of us will be somewhere in between, and that's the complexity of the human mind and the beauty of difference. We all connect in different ways and we all interact in various ways and, after all, travel isn't just about the places, it's the people you meet.
Speaker 1:I've spent a lot of time setting off on my travels alone, but, to be honest, I very rarely stayed on my own. I've always met people along the way, and some of those even fleeting relationships have been among the deepest friendships I've ever had, and others are just oodles of fun. I've met people who are kindred spirits. I've met pretty much people the opposite of me and we're still in touch, but over the years I've found these following ways to make making friends on the road easier and safer.
Speaker 1:The most convivial of locations in any country, but especially in Britain, is the youth hostel. I've been visiting youth hostels for years and I've never not met lovely people. Quite often an evening playing a 1988 version of Trivial Pursuit with cheap wine and new friends ensues, on one occasion even a sing-song, like it was 1958. The Youth Hostel is a beautiful organisation for that reason alone. Self-catering guarantees your bond over sharing a cheese grater or something. Volunteering is closely related. Indeed, the YHA offers great volunteering weekends and the Mountain Bothies Association are always looking for volunteers for a work party, but some of the loveliest people I've ever met have been sharing time working and then enjoying the relaxing downtime with a common interest. It also feeds into one of the key things about making friends when travelling, and that's finding like-minded people.
Speaker 1:Speaking of which, there are apps available that put together people who are friends in waiting. Gig Buddies is one site that brings together people who love music. Try also Backpackr, Meetup and Couchsurfing Hangouts. There are other apps too, but that's for a very different podcast. Similarly, join group tours. They don't have to be those 18-day across Morocco type-Morocco-type tours, but those work too.
Speaker 1:Listen to Season 2, Episode 1, The More the Merrier to find out how a group trip can be the perfect way to safely make new friends, especially when bookended with some alone travel time. But also think day-long walking tours, dance lessons and cooking classes. This way you can quickly bond over life, love and digestive problems. Finally, take a pack of cards, because everyone plays shithead in a slightly different way. Yes, a three is invisible.
Speaker 1:And remember, no travel story ever began. I sat alone in my room and scrolled Instagram all night. That was my Wander Woman travel hack, the advice I offer every episode to help you stay well and, importantly, safe on the road. Of course, there's always going to be a certain amount of risk when you travel. That can't be avoided, but then that can be part of the attraction. My next guest knows all about this, as Bradt, the independent guidebook publishers who produce detailed and inspiring guidebooks to destinations overlooked by other publishers, turned 50 last year. I spoke to its co-founder, Hilary Bradt, whose book Taking the Risk tells her story of intrepid travelling and adventures in business. I asked her are you a natural born risk taker?
Speaker 4:Do I class myself as a risk taker? Yes, phoebe, I'm still a risk taker, thank goodness. I've been a risk taker all my life and I think you're born that way. Actually, I think it's quite difficult to acquire risk averseness or risk pleasure, whatever you call it and I'm lucky enough to have been born with it. And it's to do with optimism too. I just feel everything will be all right, and therefore to me it's not a risk. Optimism too I just feel everything will be all right, and therefore to me it's not a risk, it's just doing the sensible thing. Then I asked how did Bradt Travel Guides begin?
Speaker 4:Like so much in my life. Completely by accident, we did set out to write a little guide, because we were the first not the first one of the first to hike the Inca Trail and it was not described anywhere. It was very easy to get lost. The ruins were covered in undergrowth and moss and it was utterly wonderful. This was in 1973. And after that, and we'd also walked several trails in the Andes, people said, oh, you really ought to write a book about it. And we thought well, you know, maybe a magazine article that grew into a little book. We wrote the book on a barge going down a tributary at the Amazon, sent it to my mother-in-law who printed 2,000 copies and that was supposed to be that. But then no one else wanted to publish a second edition. George, my then husband, went to work for a printer. We got the second edition and our guide to Africa, our hiking guide to Africa, printed and it just sort of evolved from there.
Speaker 1:You're known for publishing guides to the places other publishers won't touch, so which guidebook has made the most impact, do you think?
Speaker 4:That's a good question, I think. Actually the one I'm proudest of because of the effect it's had is the one to Rwanda, because my author, Janice Booth, who is a friend, went to Rwanda to try and track down the family of a friend that she knew had been killed in the genocide. And I mean there's a whole backstory to that which is incredibly moving. You know, she found the family. She remained friends until she died last year. They became her second, her real family. Actually she didn't have a family here, but while she was waiting to find the family because she had various contacts who helped her look she explored the country and she sent me a fact saying you must do a guide to this beautiful country, and so we did one in the year 2000.
Speaker 4:So that was only six years after the genocide and the country was so depressed, if you can put it that way. You know, the people felt that the rest of the world would never forgive them for what happened, or they were traumatized by what happened and it sort of set them on their feet. Janice, when she went back because she went back as a tour leader would see Rwandans reading the guide because they'd perhaps been in exile in Uganda or somewhere else and had come home and they were learning about their country. And so the president, who I think is a good guy, although I know he does mixed reports now he was very fond of Janice and would ask to meet her when he was in London and you know, it really had an effect on improving the situation in the country, so that's something to be proud of.
Speaker 1:Is there ever part of you that worries about covering these maybe morally questionable or controversial destinations?
Speaker 4:Another good question, Phoebe. As you know from reading Taking the Risk, our minds completely changed on that subject when we went to Chile just after the fall of Allende, the early days of Pinochet, and found that the people were very, very glad that Allende had gone. They welcomed Pinochet and I'm sorry to say this, this was the first six weeks and obviously you know he was a tyrant and they realized that later. But it taught us that you need to talk to the people. The government isn't the people and you know that yourself. It's travelling close to the ground, hitchhiking, taking local transport or whatever. You get to talk to people because you have to and you think, oh well, it's not like the media told me, and if travel broadens the mind, I think that's the one way it does it. It teaches us that the media isn't always correct.
Speaker 1:So now you're in your 80s.
Speaker 4:When George and I were travelling, it was well before the internet, it was before mobile phones and you know, what I was doing wasn't unique. People say, oh, you were really blazing the trail. There were other backpackers. It's what we did and we took a bus. It arrived at a bus station. One would stay with the luggage which we kept getting robbed they did have to be careful with that. The other would look for a cheap hotel. They were always clustered around the bus station. We'd find a hotel, we'd find somewhere to eat.
Speaker 4:Sometimes we would go to a shop and see what postcards they were selling, to see what to see. You know, there were no guidebooks. So in South America, well, what do we find here? It's interesting, the postcard shows. For instance, I remember topiary in the churchyard in a border town in Ecuador. They had wonderful topiary and so we all would see that. So of course it was different, the absence of guidebooks, which of course came before the Internet. But to travel in the early 1970s and my first trip was 1969, my first long one was a wonderful experience because it was full of serendipity. You didn't know where you were going to sleep each night, you didn't know what you were going to eat. If you hitchhiked, you didn't know who you would meet, and that made it very special, I think.
Speaker 1:Do you think and are you pleased that you travelled when and how you did, compared to if you were just starting travelling now? Do you feel quite lucky?
Speaker 4:I feel lucky. I only feel lucky. I don't feel proud. I travelled the way we had to travel if we were on a tight budget and wanted to be adventurous. I mean, that was what you did. These days I'm impressed, actually, at how many people manage to get really off the beaten track. You know, they walk, they cycle. There are some wonderful travelers now you know they're not all following the mainstream routes and I think that's quite inspiring. You don't have to go to the popular places in the world. In fact, you shouldn't only go to the popular places in the world. In fact, you shouldn't only go to the popular places. You should get off the beaten track, meet the people, literally get off the beaten track. You know, get onto the by-roads, footpaths, and then you really see the place.
Speaker 1:In Hilary's book she features a series of short stories, and what I had to ask her about was condoms.
Speaker 4:BBC Two did a series of programmes called Trade Secrets and, very sensibly, you can't even find it now on Catch Up or anything. It was a long time ago, it must have been the mid-90s, I guess I was contacted by a researcher it was. They wanted to do trade secrets, which was secrets for jungle explorers. Well, I hadn't even been to the jungle, let alone explored in the jungle for a long time, but for some reason I said oh, I know 10 uses of condoms. Now I can't actually now explain why I said that, but I think I was feeling frivolous. I thought I wouldn't be involved.
Speaker 4:I ended up in Birmingham Botanical Gardens not, unfortunately, the Amazon, which I rather hoped with crowds of people looking on. They didn't close the gardens and waving a condom in the air, slipping it over a matchbox and saying and now you can light your matches. Now you can light your fire in safety. I mean of all stupid things. You know, even in those days you would have a plastic bag to keep your matches dry. It was utterly stupid why on earth they broadcast. But they did. And it upset my mother. She was then an octogenarian and didn't think her daughter should be on television with a box of extra strong condoms.
Speaker 1:Before I left Hilary. I wanted to ask her, as someone who's been travelling the world as a solo female since the late 60s has anything changed for women travellers? Has it got easier, safer or less controversial?
Speaker 4:It's a good question, isn't it? I think, and I expect you feel the same way I don't think it's any more dangerous for women now. I mean, I make a big thing about having hitchhiked every decade of my life, except the first. I hitchhiked last year, at the age of 82. I mean, of course it has a risk, age of 82. I mean, of course it has a risk.
Speaker 4:But you know you can slip in the shower and kill yourself. So you know, if you do something like hitchhiking or hiking off the beaten track, you tend to meet really, really nice people and that reaffirms your faith in human nature. I think as a woman, actually, you're probably safer than a man because you're not seen as a threat. As long as you have enough street wisdom, you know not to do something really stupid and to dress sensibly. I mean, women sometimes dress really stupidly, to be honest. You know, if you're in a Muslim country you dress correctly. Anywhere, you don't dress provocatively. You know there's no good being a Me Too feminist when you're travelling because cultures are different. But I really don't believe it's any more dangerous now and I wish women would stop worrying, you know, feel the fear and do it anyway.
Speaker 1:Finally, I wondered, in all these years of travelling, what is the one piece of travel gear Hilary never goes anywhere without.
Speaker 4:Dental floss, because dental floss apart from keeping your teeth in shape, it's the best possible sewing thread. I've mended hiking boots with it, I've mended a tent, I've mended all sorts of important bits of gear with dental floss. And you can tie actually here's a tip If, rather than having a lock, you can tie your zips together on the suitcase with dental floss, because it can't be broken and it completely stumps thieves, because they're used to picking locks but they don't carry scissors with them. Of course we can't, so you have to have a means of cutting it when you get there, but I find nail clippers will do the job. So actually that's my final tip: Dental floss, because it's universally useful and it's very, very small.
Speaker 1:That was octogenarian author and guidebook publisher, Hilary Bradt, speaking about her incredible travel experiences over the last 60 plus years, as well as her passion for highlighting places in the world so often overlooked. Speaking of overlooked places, this episode's top 10 is all about those places that have remained crowd free, so shh, don't tell anyone In. At 10, it's Scotland's Isle of Mull. It's not unknown, but certainly not as many camper vans go there as Skye. The last time I was there I saw eagles circling. That was above a distillery I was visiting. That's a pretty good combination, and why the tourist tagline isn't fewer people, more otters, I shall never know.
Speaker 1:At nine, we're heading to Elmina in Ghana. Like many of the smaller fishing villages across West Africa, these are some of the most colourful places you'll ever cast your eyes on. I know this for a fact because it's one of my producer, daniel's, favourite places and he demanded that I put it in the list. At eight, it's Yakushima in Japan. Think Tokyo, think Kyoto, think crowds. Not here. It's easy to find solitude among the forests of Yakushima. This island inspired the Studio Ghibli film Princess Mononoke and is home to giant cedar trees and tumbling waterfalls. At seven, we're headed to Georgia, one of the most underrated destinations in Europe. This beautiful country is mostly forest and mountains, and solitude is easy. Svaneti is where to head to begin some walking in the Caucasus mountains. At six we're avoiding the trappings of the admittedly unmissable Machu Picchu and following the Chucky Quirogue Trail in Peru. It passes by some exquisite Inca sites along this challenging, unforgettable trail. And a tip for Machu Picchu do the trek and get there early, before the trains arrive In. At five is the Lofoten Islands in Norway. In the summer the fjords of Western Norway can seem tainted by the presence of big cruise ships. Not on these remote spiky islands. It is one of the most beautiful places on earth, in my humble opinion. At four is the Carpathian Mountains in Romania. Romania is a gorgeous country. So often overlooked is this mountain range where bears roam and the traditional way of life preserves in the mountains Europe's last great wilderness. Maybe.
Speaker 1:At three we're staying in the UK and heading into Northumberland National Park, quieter than well most national parks in England, especially in the Cheviot Hills. You'll often be all alone all day and evening in the summer. At two it's the Skeleton Coast in Namibia, a desolate yet beautiful strip of desert coastline speckled by shipwrecks. It's home to dramatic dunes and even desert adapted lions. The whole country is pretty quiet, in fact, and stunning.
Speaker 1:Finally, we're heading to the Julian Alps in Slovenia. On a recent visit, Slovenia's Triglav National Park seemed to be what the Dolomites were before Instagram got hold of them. This alpine landscape is just as dramatic and beautiful, but more often than not, the only people you'll see are shepherds. Easy to get to, affordable and beautiful, the cheese really is something else. That was my top 10, the crowd-free places around the world making a splash. Now, speaking of splashing, with the weather warming up slowly and the daffodils emerging from their winter sleep here in Britain.
Speaker 1:Anyway, it will soon be time for lake and river swimming again. If you're tempted to take a dip but don't know where to start, never fear. It's time for my much-lauded gear segment... Wild swimming, that wonderfully freeing sensation of taking the plunge into wild water, be it river, lake or sea, without chlorine payment or discarded plasters on the side of the pool. If you've never done it before or are a relative newbie to the experience, then, aside from having a look on wildswimming. co. uk to get safety advice, join the community and find the best slots to do it. There are a few kit items you'll want to invest in to ensure maximum comfort. First up, your swimming costume. Go for whatever kind you feel most comfortable in. For me, I opt for what I affectionately call my mumkini, aka a legsuit, which stops it riding up into my bottom and gives me a bit more warmth. But it's really about personal choice. Next up, I always use a rashy. These are great to keep you a bit warmer, but also stop you getting sunburnt shoulders on your back If you're lucky enough to be swimming in sunny weather weather that is.
Speaker 1:Thirdly, consider to wetsuit or not. In the summer, I'm firmly in the no camp, but as the weather gets a bit cooler or early in the season, I go for at least a three millimetre option. There's a whole range out there, from the surf suit with long sleeves but no legs to shorties with short sleeves and legs to full-on, full-body wetsuits. My advice consider one with short sleeves and legs to full-on, full-body wetsuits. My advice consider an alternative to neoprene, which is bad for the environment, such as ecoprene or yulex, and look for a swimming-specific wetsuit that allows more motion, flexibility and freedom of movement, warmth in key areas with less thickness in the parts that get hot, and a neutral buoyancy to allow you to move through the water more quickly.
Speaker 1:You might want to invest in swimming socks I love my two bare feet four millimeter ones which keep me toasty and have a reinforced bottom for walking into rocky rivers. And if you want to swim year-round, consider swimming gloves and a hood or hat too. No matter what you need, a toe float is essential, which is a brightly colored inflatable that's tethered to you, allowing you to be easily spotted by boats or a lifeguard and acting as an emergency rest for when you get a bit tired or want to stop and chat to fellow swimmers. For afters, ensure you have a towel, naturally, as well as warm clothes to put on, but also consider a wearable robe. I use my red dry changing robe, which is fleecy, warm inside but wind blocking on the outside. Also, a changing mat, which not only helps keep your feet warm and mud free when changing, but also doubles as a drawstring bag for your wet clothes post swim.
Speaker 1:My final tip a good and full flask of your favourite hot drink, the perfect warming up after an exhilarating water adventure. Make mine a hot chocolate. That was my regular gear chat, where I try and cut through all the noise to help you work out what you really need for any adventure or travel activity out there. I hope this episode's focus on wild swimming has inspired you to seek out your inner warrior. Speaking of seeking out the hidden, this episode's hidden hero is Katie Wignall, a blue badge guide in London who pioneered the original Jack the Ripper feminist tour, and every year during march, international women's month runs a series of women- themed tours around the uk capital. I caught up with her to hear about some of the legends in the area around green park, a place where several men's clubs still don't allow women, in some even inside the building, and ask her how it all got started.
Speaker 5:I started segwaying into doing more walks championing women. I mean, I always tried to pick out interesting women to talk about on the tours, but the first one that was overtly feminist was my Feminist Jack the Ripper tour, which was from about 2019, I think, or 2018, where I just was intrigued by the Jack the Ripper history it's a really interesting point in London's story but always felt uncomfortable about the almost glamorization of violence against women, so wanted to do it from an angle that I felt comfortable with. Yeah, and give more empathy and humanization to the women and kind of look at them as individuals and their stories and what they have in common and you know what sets them apart, really. So then I started doing as you can imagine, that's fairly a depressing tour. So I started interjecting some stories and empowering women and then, yeah, for the last three or four years or so, I've done a series of special walks in March for Women's History Month. And what's the take?
Speaker 4:up been like of, like the feminist tour, yeah it's been really, really popular.
Speaker 5:Um, it kind of helped. I had the idea before and then Hallie Rubenhold published her incredible book, The Five and, to be honest, that really helped me feel that there was an appetite and, uh, gave me a bit of courage to kind of go for it. Yeah, and I've met Hallie before. She's been really supportive of the tour and the reframing of the the history, so that's been really nice. And, yeah, they continue to sell out and they I do them a couple of times a month. And also lots of student groups. I took an amazing group of year eight boys and that was really nice to feel like you're making a difference, you know making them see you, yeah, totally and
Speaker 5:they were a bit of a hero, yeah, or like this sort of salacious story that is mythologized. You know it's so. It was nice and they were. They were great group, they asked so many good questions and you know it's really nice to engage them as well. But yeah, so the idea today with the Women's History Tours is to focus on some famous and some kind of not so famous women. So we're just passing St James's Palace and St James's Palace is kind of the reason that we have St James's.
Speaker 5:So the area develops because Henry VIII builds a palace here in the 1530s. Actually at the time he's with Anne Boleyn, so it's kind of for her, but it's still a centre of Royal Palace. It's a royal sort of life, although it's not the official London residence. That's Buckingham Palace. You have lots of offices associated with the royal family and charities that are based in St James's and they hold state things. But really, you know, when the court moves here in the 1600s, as Westminster is becoming kind of more popular and Westminster Palace is damaged by a fire because the king and the court is based here, you get this flurry of building in St James's and aristocrats move in, and when the aristocrats move in it then prompts all of their you know the shops and the services to follow their clients and take up shop here. So you get the establishing of lots of now very famous menswear, fashion retailers, coffee shops and the clubs and it basically becomes a neighbourhood where everything that you need to kit out a gentleman you can get within a short radius walk. So it kind of follows quite an organic, easy to understand progress really.
Speaker 5:But it's almost exclusively, you know, in the minds of people. You think of it as a very male dominated place, especially because a number of the clubs only incredibly recently started to allow women. In terms of the Pall Mall clubs, the RSA was founded in 1897, and relatively soon. In terms of gentlemen clubs, they, in the 1920s, absorbed in the ladies' section of the club, so they're probably one of the best in terms of equality. Royal society was established 1660 and their first female member was 1945. Wow, so that, so that's pretty bad. Yeah, it did take a while. Um, you then have uh, reform Club, which was relatively recent because they are 1836 and they allowed women from 1981. So they sort of quite pride themselves that they were early in the grand scheme of things, whereas Athenaeum has very illustrious membership for science and wisdom and arts and literature. So in 2002, and they were founded back in 1824 and there's still no women, apart from some honorary members. They're allowed at boodles, brooks or whites, which are the kind of very elitist ones on St James's streets.
Speaker 5:So we're going to walk up here and then our next stop is about a woman who has a statue one of about just over 20 now of statues in women, just slightly under the number of statues of men called John. So at this bar, if you were to come, even in the early 2000s, you would have seen, um, a woman who's in her 90s, who always sat at the bar. She had her seat and woe betide you if you tried to steal her seat. And this woman was originally from New Zealand, then grew up in Australia and then lived a lot of her life in France, and she was called Nancy Wake and she was just beautiful, stunning. She's also our longest-lived lady today.
Speaker 5:She was born in 1912 and then died only in 2011. So she was 98, 99, yeah, and she, um, was living in France at the outbreak of the second world war and basically helped kind of undercover usher out allied troops in the growing Nazi threat in um in france. She managed to get to London. Her husband was arrested and executed. But she got back to London and the first thing that she did was sign up to become one of the SOE. So these are the Special Operations Executive secret agents that get posted back to Nazi-occupied France. Wow. So out of a thousand or so agents, quite a few dozen were women. They specially recruited women because they thought they would blend in more easily and especially they were going for French-speaking women so quickly.
Speaker 5:In her time working with the SOE she got this nickname of the white mouse because she was so hard to capture and was always evading and making her way out of things. On one she cycles 125 miles like with a message of a sort of French resistance victory against the Germans to send the message back to England. So she's doing all these sort of daring deeds. It's a nice story as well where she gets sort of she's parachuted into France and she gets trapped in a tree and this French soldier tries to sort of she's like parachuted into France and she gets trapped in a tree and this French soldier tries to sort of smooth talk her and say he's never seen such beautiful, like dangling fruit, and she says don't give me any of that French shit. And she's so. She's quite a character.
Speaker 5:Very sort of feisty um is given all of these medals. I mean the George medal from the UK, medal of Freedom for the United States, legend honor from France, the Order of Australia, a badge of gold in New Zealand as well, described as a real Australian bombshell. Tremendous vitality, flashing eyes. Everything she did she did well. Her training reports say that she was a very good and fast shot and was great in fieldcraft. She put the men to shame by her cheerful spirit and strength of character. So even in her 90s she was very quick-witted and would sit at the bar and basically, if you bought her enough drinks would regale you with all of her like glamorous stories At the bar, I believe. Still they have a cocktail called a white mouse that you can order at the bar here.
Speaker 1:That was this episode's hidden hero, or, in this case, hidden heroines the person or people doing vital work in the communities they work in to preserve culture, wildlife or community and, in Katie's case, champion the unseen or forgotten. Speaking of which, it's nearly the end of the episode, so time for me to share with you my utterly incredible Wander Woman of the Month, the traveller whose name is lost to the history books purely because of her gender. I hope you've enjoyed what you've heard. Please do subscribe so you never miss an episode, and please do leave a review. It means so very much. You can follow me on Instagram at Phoebe R Smith, find me on Blue Sky or go to my website, phoebe-smith. com, where you can sign up for my occasional newsletter and, of course, send me a message.
Speaker 1:Now this episode. We head to Scotland for a wander through the life and work of the author whose success has only been seen after her death. "Then we looked into each other's eyes and again into the pit. I waded slowly back into shallower water. There was nothing that seemed worth saying. My spirit was as naked as my body. It was one of the most defenceless moments of my life.
Speaker 1:There was Nan Shepherd, high on the Cairngorms Plateau, naked, with a friend exploring the sensations of the cold water on her body, on an arctic plateau among Britain's highest mountains sometime during World War II. A moment of peace, beauty, sensuality, even at a time of turmoil. We know this happened because she wrote about it in The Living Mountain, one of the greatest books about nature ever written, in my humble opinion. In my mind it sits with Roger Deakin's Waterlog in the top two. It's a masterpiece. Empty is the rucksack that travels to the Cairngorms without a tattered copy of this book. All the more remarkable is the fact that she was writing these words, this ode to the mountains she knew best in the 1940s. Astonishingly, this book, which propelled her to if not quite fame, then at least respect, wasn't published until 1977. She kept it in a drawer for years.
Speaker 1:Anna Nan Shepherd was born on February 11th 1893, in Colts on the outskirts of Aberdeen. Her family were wealthy enough to send her to the University of Aberdeen, graduating in 1915. She then started a long career as a teacher and never left the village. She grew up in having to look after her mother. Her first novel was published in 1928, the Quarry Wood, which spoke about the life of women in rural Scotland, followed with two more novels that followed the contradictions of the life of women in rural Scotland, followed with two more novels that followed the contradictions of the life of women in traditional Scottish communities against the pull of the city. These novels also shone a light on her own conflicts. She never left the village she lived in, but she was very widely read, educated and part of Scotland's modernist literature movement. They were successful books, but she never seemed to be fully able to recognise herself as a writer, despite gaining some success. After these books, it would be another 43 years before she published any more.
Speaker 1:But she didn't sit idle. She loved the mountains, spending days at a time walking the Cairngorms, recording its nature and its aspects from a poetic, philosophical and deeply personal perspective. She walked not to achieve summits but to experience, to be absorbed by the landscapes. She never married, though had an unrequited love affair with her best friend's husband, the philosopher John McMurray. Many believe this is when she wrote The Living Mountain. And what a book it is. It lays the mountains as bare as her soul and mind. To dive into it is to dive into a mountain pool. Refreshing, jarring, soothing, beautiful and life-affirming is one of the few books I've read several times.
Speaker 1:Nan Shepherd is one of the greatest ever writers about the natural world, if not the best. That would be enough to place her in the Wander Woman Hall of Fame. But her legacy lies far beyond literature. Through her writings, poetry, fiction, essays, our understanding of the mountain world of Scotland is infinitely richer. Despite not garnering the recognition she deserved in her lifetime, she does now appear on the Royal Bank of Scotland's £5 note. The Nan Shepherd Prize is awarded every two years for writers from underrepresented backgrounds and, perhaps most poignantly or practically, there's a project called "Following Nan that encourages others to experience the mountains in the Nan style, that's to say to connect not conquer, to slow down not race, to explore the micro, not just the macro. In a world that moves too fast, nan Shepard asks us to slow down, to listen and to see, and that's why Nan Shepard is this episode's Wonder Woman of the Month. That was my ever-inspiring Wonder Woman of the Month, the historical hidden heroine the world needs to know about. As more travellers take an interest in wilderness places, I hope they will seek out Nan's wonderful book the Living Mountain In the next episode of the Wonder Woman podcast.
Speaker 1:I head to West Africa in search of the origins of voodoo in Benin and Togo with Explore. My travel hack will help you make the most of traveling with a guide. I'll be sharing the 10 best cultural experiences you can have around the world. Meet the charity that is empowering Sherpa women to become sports therapists to bring in their own money in the high Himalaya. And I catch up with Lise Wortley, aka Woman With Altitude, who's been following in the footsteps of many Wander Women wearing their traditional dress. See you next time, Wander Woman out. The Wander Woman podcast is written and edited by me, Phoebe Smith. The producer and writer of additional material is Daniel Nielson. The logo was designed by John Summerton. A final thanks to Ellie, who came with me on our Bothy journey, and to all the other people willing to talk to me. It's because of you that this podcast is able to happen at all.