The Long Haul

A splash of wine hits the dust beneath the table, offered first to Pachamama - aka Mother Earth, and suddenly northern Argentina feels more family member than nameless destination. Follow Phoebe's Wander Woman correspondent Daniel Neilson as he journeys to Jujuy and Salta following ancient Andean trade routes, reading a 4,000-year timeline etched into rock, and asking one deceptively simple question: how did life and culture move across mountains that seem designed to keep people apart? The answer, it seems, is llama-shaped. 

Also coming up:

• Author Michael Pugh - on Riding through War and Peace on a horse from Russia to Transylvania 
• Travel Hack: How to (and how not to) travel with a teenager
• Whales, sloths and cabybaras... Latin America's best 10 wildlife encounters 
• Meet Katie Carr, the woman who not only finished her late brother's book but went on to honour his memory by completing his kayaking adventure
• Gear chat: what to pack to travel by horseback
• Juana Manual Gorriti – the greatest Argentine author you've never heard of – is our Wander Woman of the Month.

If you enjoyed the stories, subscribe, share the episode with a fellow traveller, and leave us a review so more people can find the show.

www.Phoebe-Smith.com; @PhoebeRSmith

Transcript

Speaker 6 0:00

On this month's Wander Woman podcast, without the lamas it's impossible to understand the Andean life.

Speaker 2 0:06

Join my Wander Woman correspondent Daniel Nielson as he heads to Argentina to discover how the humble llama shaped life, trade and culture throughout Latin America. And talking of animals, I speak to lawyer turned debut author Michael Pugh about why he decided to travel from Russia to Transylvania by horseback.

Speaker 5 0:25

It's a luxurious way to travel, really. I mean, even though you might get stiff legs and sore body parts at different different times.

Speaker 2 0:34

And I meet Katie Carr, who after completing her late brother's book about his attempt to kayak all the places on the shipping forecast, made it her mission to complete the actual challenge too.

Speaker 3 0:44

Obviously, this is a fairly big step. I've never been in a sea kayak. I live in Barcelona, not in the UK where most of the kayaking was going to be based.

Speaker 2 0:55

Also coming up, I give you my top tips for travelling with teens the right way in my monthly travel hack. Discover 10 incredible wildlife encounters in Latin America, and in my regular gear section, I help you pack for exploration in the saddle. Finally, I'll be revealing this episode's Wander Woman of the Month, the traveller whose name is lost in the history books. You're listening to the Wander Woman Podcast, an audio travel magazine with me, Adventurer Phoebe Smith, exploring off-the-beaten track destinations, wild spaces, wildlife encounters, and the unsung heroes behind conservation efforts. Come wander with me.

Argentina, Andes and the llama army

Speaker 6 1:42

So thank you, Mother Earth. Thank you, Mother Earth. And thank you, the family to visit the earth.

Speaker 4 1:52

Here in Jujuy in northern Argentina, the first drop of wine is not for us. Instead, it is poured onto the earth beneath the table. A little bit of wine for Pachamama or Mother Earth, given before anyone else takes a drink. It's a belief based on reciprocity. You receive from the earth, but you must also give back. At dinner the previous evening, our host Fabio had explained that Pachamama was central to the cultures that lived in these valleys before the Inca times. The Inca world became socially associated with Inti, the sun god, but among the older cultures here, it was Mother Earth that was the principal spiritual force. It was, Fabio told us, a culture of giving and receiving, in food, in clothes, in ceremonies, something that happened all along the ancient trade routes, which, thanks to the humble camelids such as the Lama, connected the remote Andean communities here with Bolivia and Chile for thousands of years. On a mission to trace these old routes, my journey begins in the back of a Ford Ranger, trundling along a dusty road in JuJuy, close to Argentina's northern border with Bolivia. Dark clouds are gathering over the Andes. Rain here is rare, but when it arrives, it comes suddenly. We jump out of the truck and follow fast along a narrow path around enormous cardon cacti and thorny churchy trees. The landscape here is arid and abrasive. Fabio leads us down to a dry riverbed. He finds a long stick and points at a sloping rock beneath a small pool of water.

Speaker 3:27

And there are some parts that are not here anymore because the structure that we are on kind of like doesn't let the all the river come through and it destroyed a bit of what is the mural.

Speaker 4 3:40

I should interrupt here to explain that this is Nina. Many years ago, before I had responsibilities and kids, I lived in Argentina for five years. And now I'm back travelling with my 15-year-old daughter Clara and my best friend's daughter Nina, who, also aged just 15, is already a very able translator. As she begins to explain what we're looking at, I see shapes on the rock begin to emerge. The entire surface is covered in drawings. It's a vast panel of petroglyphs recording thousands of years of human history.

Speaker 4:09

The ones that are like accumulated are from the first civilizations, talking about like how like they came here and they made their own like societies and how like their culture was made and all that.

Speaker 4 4:22

And and what years were the original, the earliest ones?

Speaker 4:32

This is like the the oldest part from like 2000 before Christ.

Speaker 4 4:36

What we are looking at here is not a single picture made by one community. It's a surface that was used and reused across millennia, with successive generations adding their own animals, their own tools, leaders, and gods. The earliest images are here because this particular area was a meeting place for the people travelling through the Andes on these old trade routes, and they act as a kind of pictorial history book to what life was here throughout the ages.

Speaker 5:00

These drawings not only show like the societies and the gods that they loved, but also it shows, for example, what they were eating at the time, which is Guanaco. And it also shows this thing that they were used for either war or sacrifice, which was to the site, there were like sharpened stones, and in the middle there would be like, yeah, a bone.

Speaker 4 5:25

The drawings record both the practical details as well as its spiritual ones, and the same shapes appear repeatedly across the rock, but do gradually begin to change.

Speaker 5:35

The line wasn't hereditary, so basically it wasn't like the father and then the son would be the chief. They would have like these battle tournaments in between like all the men, and they would grab those tools that I described before, and they would just like go everyone against everyone. Whoever basically won became like the new chief.

Speaker 4 5:55

The sequence almost reads like a family tree of power. The later figures I begin to see are more clearly defined, the tools are more elaborate, the clothing more detailed, and their bodies appear more individual. The rock doesn't simply record the different leaders that existed, but preserves something of how those leaders presented themselves and how society changed around them. The sun, the moon, and the surrounding mountains are here, drawn in the rock as well. Among the pre-Inca cultures of the Andes, the natural world was alive with spiritual meaning. The earth, the animals, the celestial bodies, and all the peaks possessed power.

Speaker 6:28

Everything that they would either get something from, they would make a god. It shows that you would have to go like up a mountain to go and to worship the Guanaco god, and that's why it's like so big and so important.

Speaker 4 6:43

As we move farther across the rock, the images begin to change. Farther along is a much larger weapon, which Fabio interprets as the arrival of the Incas. And then after it, there are fewer images, perhaps evidence of a quieter period, and then suddenly chaos. Clear as day, there is a man on a horseback holding a sword. He faces down a person standing on foot. The Spanish have arrived. But what I also noticed looking at this 4,000-year-old timeline was how the animals changed as well. The wild vicunas and the ganacos give way to sturdier, domesticated llamas, animals bred not simply to survive in the landscape, but to carry things through it. I was struck by their obvious importance, so the following day I go to meet Santos Manfredi, high above the Andean town of Tilcara, deep in the Quebrare de Umahuaca. His business is called Caravana de Llamas, the caravan of llamas, and he takes visitors walking with these animals through the mountains so they can learn more about their place in history of the Andes. And I'm given the rein to Atahuelpa, a handsome white animal with a permanently quizzical expression. He's named after the first independent Inca emperor who was captured and executed by the Spanish in 1533. Atahuelpa the Lama is in less immediate danger, although he does appear determined not to go anywhere. I gently pull the rope, he stares at me. I encourage him, he stares at me. If llamas helped move people across South America, I begin to suspect it happened very, very slowly. And as with Meander, Santos explains the importance of these somewhat stubborn creatures.

Speaker 6 8:22

Without the llamas, it's impossible to understand the union life feature. Without a carrier, it's impossible to exchange. Yeah. To get the dry feature from the Pacific Ocean and with uh the honey coming from the uh rainforest mode they uh so uh with the lamps this for two different uh uh groups of people living in that looking around its dry 300 millimeters by uh yeah of of rain. Uh in the command just fifty in the uh in the jungle, rainforest mountains, two thousand millimeters of water each year.

Speaker 4 9:11

In the Caprara de Umawaka, it became a great crossroads of trade. This is the key to the story. The Andes contained radically different environments, separated by enormous distances and difficult terrain. Different communities had access to different things salt, fish, stone, metals, honey, feathers, fruit, medicinal plants, and all of this trade required a carrier.

Speaker 6 9:34

Because the lamas carry between twenty-five and sixty kilos. And this is why it's possible to carry leather, stone, minerals, food, water. All you need to survive three, four, five days crossing the mountains. You need to carry everything. Uh your tent, the food, uh, what you need, and this is impossible on the back of the people. So in the past, the people carry that with uh thirty, forty, uh, eighty llamas.

Speaker 4 10:11

While camelids had supported human life in the Andes for thousands of years, so I wondered where the domesticated llamas that we see today first came from.

Speaker 6 10:19

Fromacos, white ganacos, we get domesticated llamas. Okay. From wild vicunias, domesticated alpacas. So llamas and alpacas are domesticated kind from that two wild kinds. And it wasn't just the type of creatures, but their colour was created too. To arrive to a white colour or black colour or brown colour, you get six thousand years of breeding, looking for special colours that doesn't exist in nature. This is hybridation. This is six thousand years of Indian people breeding animals to reach this special colour.

Speaker 4 11:06

We end our journey back in Salta at the Museum of High Altitude Archaeology. We're not allowed to record in there, but the museum is home to the preserved remains of three ink children, discovered in 1999 near the summit of Yuyu Yako volcano at an altitude of more than 6,700 metres. They were sacrificed as part of a ceremony known as Kapachocha around 1500. Now I know that the displaying of bodies is controversial and definitely one deserving of debate at another time, but I mention it here because what was of particular note was how almost everything around them points back to the camelids of the Andes and their importance. His clothing is made from camelid wool, his ponchos and blankets are woven from it, his moccasins are made with camelid leather, and a small sling that he carries is formed of camelid fibre. And among the objects buried with him are representations of llamas, wanacos, and vicunias. They symbolize prosperity and protection, but they reveal something more practical. The people, the objects and the materials had travelled across extraordinary distances, and behind those journeys were the animals capable of carrying life through the Andes.

Speaker 2 12:13

That was my Wander Woman correspondent and podcast editor Daniel Nielsen, who travelled to the Andes for the wine but came back with an appreciation and I believe a lot of love for the llamas. And after hearing that, I'm not surprised. I'm feeling the love for them too. Thanks to Argentina on the go, who organised his trip through the region.

Travel Hack: How To Travel With Teenagers

Speaker 2 12:33

Now, one thing he also learned, thanks to his 15-year-old daughter Clara and her Argentinian best friend Nina, who ablely translated for parts of the trip, was how to, and perhaps more importantly, how not to travel with teenagers in tow. So I decided we could all learn from his newfound wisdom and this month's travel hack, how to travel with teens.

Speaker 2 12:55

First of all, accept that this is not going to be the trip you imagined. It's very different than travelling with a younger child. They don't need constant entertainment. In fact, it seems very little. And they may be wildly enthusiastic one minute and horizontal under a hoodie the next. And while we're talking about predictability or lack thereof, don't expect them to love what you think they'll love. Months after the Lama track, Daniel says that Clara still claims to hate the Camelids. A visit to a convent or a pool bar in Buenos Aires, however, is another story. The trick is not to expect gratitude on demand. That joy, those memories are formed later.

Speaker 2 13:30

The second is to find out what they want out of the trip first and make sure you make them feel it is for them. Yes, a visit to the Museum of High Altitude Archaeology in Psalter is fascinating and sparks debate. But ask a teenager if it sounds like a good idea before you go, well, you can assume what the answer will be. It's a holiday, not a field trip. They don't have to approach everything with a sense of wonder and exuberant explanations about the quality of a fresco. Things do sink in, so give them some ownership. An activity, a meal, a place to visit that they want and put it in your itinerary.

Speaker 2 14:04

Another thing is to build in some quality digital time. No, I know they're not here to learn TikTok videos, but they do need space just like you do. Not every second needs to be filled making memories. Let them connect with their friends at home and well, just do nothing at all. It's tiring being a teenager. Factoring in downtime means the next bit will be better.

Speaker 2 14:26

Next up, feed them. Keep snacks close, just like with the llamas, but keep headphones closer. Some of Clara and Nina's most memorable moments were in the car, travelling through incredible countryside, just in their own thoughts, listening to their own songs. Find shared moments. Those that make the group laugh will keep on giving. Circle back to the joke, and it will always lighten the mood.

Speaker 2 14:49

And perhaps more importantly, give them some independence. Everyone is different, of course, but Daniel felt very comfortable leaving Clara to explore parts of Buenos Aires or Salta with a friend.

Speaker 2 15:00

And accept that the best bits are not almost never, in fact, going to be the bits that you planned for. It will always be the unlikely encounter. It will be a surprise, the wild turbulence on a plane. It will be a way you would order at a restaurant. Similarly, the bad bits won't be what you expect either. Daniel's advice: always make sure a teenager has a phone charger. Finally, don't be a needy parent. Accept that not everything will be incredible. Tiredness, altitude sickness, stubborn llamas, hormones, and Wi-Fi issues is an admittedly unlikely but brutal combination for a teenager.

Speaker 2 15:34

And the best bits, the hug at the end of a night, a hand slipped into yours, a tag in an Instagram post. Teenagers are a joy to travel with. You're not going to get instant results, but they will remember those moments forever. And so will you. It will shape them. Just trust in the process and try to enjoy it.

Speaker 2 15:54

That was my Wander Woman travel hack. The advice I and in this episode, Daniel, give to you every month to make your travels run much more smoothly.

Wander Woman meets Michael Pugh - Riding from Russia to Transylvania by horseback

Speaker 2 16:03

Speaking of Smooth, my next guest is someone who set out on a journey by horseback from Russia. So Smooth perhaps wasn't ever going to be part of the bargain. Lawyer and debut travel author Michael Pugh, who I must proudly claim I taught on a week-long travel writing workshop several years ago in West Cork in Ireland, has just released Riding Through War and Peace. I caught up with him to find out why on earth he did it and what we all need to know about the country and its people.

Speaker 5 16:33

I'm a lecturer in law at St. Mary's University. What I've just done recently is publish a book about my leaving Russia because I spent eight and a half years there. And when I left, I wanted to say a long goodbye. So I got on my horses and decided to ride out.

Speaker 2 16:50

What inspired you? So it was a 1,500-mile journey on horseback from Russia to Transylvania. What inspired you to do this journey?

Speaker 5 17:01

Well, I don't know whether you've had things like this, but you don't always understand at the time. I don't think I completely understood at the time why I was doing it. But I was looking at your Wayfarer book recently, and um I noticed that that had different dimensions to it. And my relationship with Russia goes back a long, long way. In fact, my great-grandfather fought there during the intervention on behalf of the whites. But I started my relationship with Russia by visiting it as a student in 1992 to study Russia. And I studied there in 1993 and in the summer of 94, and spent time in Ukraine, Crimea, Ukraine, and long, long time in Russia. But by the time I got to 2014, I was about 40. And then it's that kind of time where you think, well, how am I gonna spend my life? Am I gonna spend it's what's the future for me? Will it be the rest of my life in Russia or will it be coming home? And um and I didn't like the political situation there, so I thought I'll come home. But there's a lot to like, I've got to be quite careful about saying this, but there is a lot to like about Russia, and I'm not talking about Putin and his regime in the Kremlin, but there are nice people there, and I had the time of my life there in some ways, so I just wanted to say a slow goodbye rather than being back in London four hours later thinking, how can I process that amazing, incredible high and low time of eight and a half years there.

Speaker 2 18:40

So, what was it that made you decide on the route? And what was it that made you decide to do it by horseback?

Speaker 5 18:48

Well, I had made I'd made the most amazing group of riding friends out there, really, and I think it's always important to say thank you. It was thanks to a person called Struan Simpson. He's no longer with us, but I knew him through my days in the territorial army, and he had just by chance when I was in Russia, he'd come over to Moscow with his then girlfriend Karina, really good group of people, and we'd ridden around Vorodno Battlefield, which is where Napoleon fought Ketuzov, and you know, it was a really incredible battle in 1812. And these riders, these Russian riders became my friends. We rode in Kamchatka, through volcanoes, past sulphurous gazers, we rode through the Caucasus Mountains in the foothills of Elbrus. And so riding was a great freedom. I worked really hard in my law firm, but when I took the holidays, riding was like a like a complete tonic and a complete break. And I just thought, you see so much on horseback. People I know you do lots of lots of walking, and people talk to you when you're walking. But when you're on a horse, people talk to the horse, they want to feed the horse. They um it's a very nice way to interact with people. They might say, Can you give my my children a ride on the horse? And and I had some freedom, you know, freedom is very precious and it doesn't come very often, but I I had some savings, so I just thought, well, I'm going to use some of those and and travel slowly.

Speaker 2 20:25

Was there a reason you were trying to that you chose to end in Transylvania?

Speaker 5 20:30

Yeah, I'd um I'd ridden a lot in Transylvania. There's a really good guy called Greg Helm, who is British. Uh mum lives on the borders of Wales, which I know is close to your hearts and close to mine. And uh he's got a he's got a Romanian wife, Romanian family, and I've ridden around Transylvania with him, and it's so beautiful, really, really beautiful. Um, and originally the route was going to be turning up on the border of eastern Ukraine because I've got a very good friend called Yevgeny who lives there. Uh, we worked together in the 90s. His family have a banya, and I thought that's going to be fantastic just to sit back in the steam after almost a month of um of riding. But then, of course, Russia had orchestrated the invasion of Ukraine's eastern flank. So I thought turning up on a horse from Russia is not the most sensible idea. So let's change the route. So I just thought go westwards to Smajensk, through Belarus, and then down through Ukraine, western Ukraine, and into Transylvania there. I always wanted to end in Transylvania because it's just like a fairy tale. It's it's got these Saxon fortifications, Saxon villages. It um you wake up to the sound of cowbells ringing, it's it's it is a continuation of the Swiss Alps, but it's like Switzerland, I imagine a hundred years ago.

Speaker 2 22:00

What is the biggest misunderstanding that people have about Russia and its people, would you say?

Speaker 5 22:05

I mean, I think it starts at a very basic level. When I was studying Russian in 91, going over it, I went over for a summer course in Moscow, and people would say, Oh, take a warm coat, it's gonna be cold. Well, of course, the summer in Moscow is beautiful. It's light and sunny until about eleven o'clock. You know, it's a it's a it's a magical time. So, in a sense, the misunderstanding starts at a very, very basic level. But um I mean of course there are terrible things going on. People are being marshalled into the army, conscripted into the army, people are dying, and the number of casualties of deaths is huge. And the number of people who are critically disabled as a result, that's also huge. But they've got a very uh you know oppressive regime where you're not free to stand up and say I disagree with this, because we've all seen what happened to the Valley for for for doing that. Um I mean it's a it's a really big problem. Um and and I suppose in a way I think it's important to keep open the channel to say to my Russian friends that I'm not in touch with them now, it's easier not to be better for them not to be getting messages from the West or anything like that. But just to say that um you know I have faith that you haven't turned into a monster overnight.

Speaker 2 23:39

And of all the people then you met then, speaking of people, and you meet the wonderful characters in the book, like who left perhaps the greatest impression on you and why?

Speaker 5 23:49

That's a really, really good question. Um I think probably Slavik, who is my guide in Ukraine, because he's one of these, he's part of an ethnic minority, a Ruthenian ethnic minority that no one's ever heard of. Basically, they're called Hutzul people, and he comes from the Hutsul area of the Carpathians, and it's unbelievably beautiful. It's it's just like you know, going into the land of the elves out of Lord of the Rings. I mean, the countryside is so fresh, the mountain peaks are so so high, it's wonderful walking, because you can get really, really go up really, really high, but it's not that steep, so it's not that difficult in terms of the gradient. And his way of life was really quite similar to what it would have been a hundred years ago. You know, a lot of milking, making smoked cheese that they dry up in the rafters of a of a remote farmhouse on the Romanian border.

Speaker 2 24:53

If you could ride the entire route again today, what would you do differently?

Speaker 5 24:58

There's part of me that just makes me think no, it was it was fine as it was. Probably I would take a better camera.

Speaker 2 25:05

That was Michael Pugh, his debut book, Riding Through War and Peace, is out now at all good bookshops. Now, he may have chosen to ride a horse, and earlier we heard from Daniel who took to hiking with a llama, but there are plenty of wildlife opportunities in South America that do not involve sitting in a saddle or tugging on reins.

Top 10 wildlife encounters in Latin America

Speaker 2 25:26

Which brings us nicely to this month's top 10 and some of the best wildlife experiences in Latin America.

Speaker 2 25:33

At 10, we're back in Argentina and heading to the Peninsula Valdez to see, yep, whales. The southern right whale is here between June and October. Nothing quite beats the moment when you first glimpse these huge marine mammals. Down here, you'll also likely spy sea lions, elephant seals, penguins and orcas, as well as maras, which are long-legged rodent rabbit type things and very cute.

Speaker 2 26:00

At nine, we're craning our necks to see the ultimate South American bird, the condor. The bird is an integral part of Andean folklore and mythology. It's also unimaginably huge, with wingspans up to 10 feet. Even high on the thermals above the passes and canyons of Argentina, Peru, and Bolivia, they look imposing. You're almost guaranteed to see them, and it is always special.

Speaker 2 26:27

At 8, we're spotting flamingos. Yep, huge flocks of these bright pink birds can be seen on the salt flats and lagoons of the Atacama Desert and Altiplano of Chile and Bolivia. It's a bizarre sight. These pink animals foiled against the white of the salt or the deep blue of the lakes. Incidentally, flamingos also have the best collective noun, a flamboyance. Fancy.

Speaker 2 26:53

At seven, we're searching for Paddington and South America's only native Ur sign, the spectacled bear. They are elusive, and experienced trackers, and maybe even your own pair of super spectacles would be needed to see them. But they are there, within the cloud forests of Ecuador. Be warned though, they're not as polite as Paddington himself.

Speaker 2 27:14

At six, we're heading to the farthest reaches of South America to see the Humboldt penguins. Found along the Chilean Pacific coast, the best places to see them are on Magdalena Island near Punto Arenas, the Punil Islets of Chilue Island, and the aptly named Parque Pinguino Rey in Tierra del Fuego. The Spanish Pinguino is also a far better word than the English penguin.

Speaker 2 27:41

At five, we're deep into the Amazon to see pink river dolphins, also known as the botto. You can find them across the Amazon, but the region around Leticia and Puerto Narino in Colombia is excellent. They become pink because of abrasions on their skin, and the best way to find them is to go on a canoe-based wildlife watching experience.

Speaker 2 28:03

At four, it's the mighty jaguar in the Pantanal of Brazil. The world's largest tropical wetland has the highest concentration of jaguar, as well as other things that can bite, including 10 million cayman and anaconda. Perhaps best stay in the boat.

Speaker 2 28:20

At three, we're in Peru to look to the sky and the unforgettable spectacle of the macaws, parrots and parakeets, gathering at the mineral-rich clay cliffs at Chochu Clay Lick, near Tambapata. It's colourful, noisy, and beautiful, just like South America.

Speaker 2 28:40

At two, we're slowing down to see the sloths. You'll find them in tropical rainforests of Central and South America. But Daniel has seen them in the trees in town squares in Bolivia. They spend most of their lives hanging upside down in the canopy, surviving on a diet of leaves, buds, and twigs. Nice work if you can get it.

Speaker 2 29:01

And at one, it's the capabara. It's having a bit of a moment, especially in Japan, which isn't bad for what is essentially the world's largest rodent. You'll find them in all South American countries except Chile, and they are mightily cute and ever so slightly weird. They like a hug, well, they probably don't, but you can stroke them, which they probably don't like either, so best avoid.

Speaker 2 29:24

That was my top 10 slot, the part of the episode where I help you pack ideas into your head like you were packing for an expedition.

Gear: What to pack for travel in a saddle

Speaker 2 29:31

Speaking of which, if you've been inspired by both Daniel with his close encounter with Llamas and Michael who went horseback riding in Russia, you may want to stick around for my gear section, which is next, where I include the vital kit you'll need when undertaking a trek firmly in the saddle.

Speaker 2 29:49

Top of your list should be riding or walking trousers. You could spend four to eight hours a day in the saddle, so they need to be comfy and that means minimal seams and quick drying fabric that's moisture-wicking to let out sweat. If you have horse riding specific jobpers or tights, great, but avoid jeans which can become stiff, wet and uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 30:12

For the boots, you need a heel for safety and stability when using stirrups. They prevent your foot slipping and avoid your foot getting stuck should you fall off. Most outfitters provide riding boots for you to use, so check when booking. Same goes for a helmet. Always check in advance this is provided. And if you're already a rider, do bring your own for the best fit.

Speaker 2 30:33

As with all activities, layer up with base layers that keep you cool, warm mid layers like fleece to keep you warm, and a waterproof or windproof outer as temperatures can change dramatically.

Speaker 2 30:46

Vital are sturdy gloves as rains can really cut into your hands and fingers. Sunglasses are key to keep dust out of your eyes as well as protecting you from wind and UV. And don't forget your lip balm as well as your sun cream and a neck gator to protect you from the rays, especially if you're at altitude where it can be even more intense.

Speaker 2 31:05

And you'll need water, so therefore a water bottle. And for those serious about the activity or those who have a sensitive behind, do consider specialist equestrian underwear. Your butt will most definitely thank you.

Speaker 2 31:19

That was my monthly gear chat where I make sure your entire body won't hate you after a travel adventure.

Hidden Hero: Katie Carr

Speaker 2 31:25

Now my next guest can't say the same of her body after taking on an epic challenge that she actually inherited from her brother. Toby Carr set off in 2018 to kayak all 31 areas of the shipping forecast, but sadly died before he could finish it. Using his notes, diaries, and photographs, his sister completed the book he was writing about it, Moderate Becoming Good Later, which was released in 2023 and won several awards. But she then decided to honour his legacy further by completing the challenge he couldn't, which she has just written about in her own book, Thundery at Times. I caught up with her to ask how it felt to take on a challenge she never intended to do.

Speaker 3 32:09

My brother Toby set out to Sea Kayak in all areas of the shipping forecast. There are 31 sea areas. This is the UK's maritime shipping forecast, so weather forecast really. And I guess most people know it because of how it comes across on the radio and perhaps don't know the meaning behind the places or anything about any of the places. So Toby set off to explore these places in a sea kayak. Luckily, he didn't set any kind of limits on it in terms of needing to do entire coastlines or anything like that. He went off to Southeast Iceland and started from there. And he got part of the way through that journey. So he did 16 and a half of those sea areas. And then he died before he'd finished it. He was born with a genetic disorder, which meant that he knew he'd have a shorter life. So it wasn't a huge surprise, although obviously it was really sad and difficult to deal with. When he died, he'd uh already managed to get a book deal, which was going to be about his entire journey, but obviously he hadn't finished it. And so I picked up that mantle in a way. Uh he'd, yeah, he'd found this publisher, he'd done that on the back of a proposal. So he hadn't written the book, but I did find a lot of notes that he'd written that were very descriptive, and I decided to write it for him. So Moderate Becoming Good Later is Toby's story in Toby's voice. Some of it is written by him, but most of it is written by me from all of his notes and all of his recordings.

Speaker 2 33:46

And why do you think he chose this? Why what drew him to the shipping forecast areas? What was the inspiration there?

Speaker 3 33:53

So when we were growing up, we had a small boat. Um, my parents did, and we used to sail between England and France and England and the Netherlands. And so the shipping forecast was more than just uh sort of poetry to us. It was actually something that was useful. It very much connects us with our family life, which wasn't particularly easy, as you'll find out in Thundery at times. Um, and for him, I think it reminded him of our dad and of our other brother Marcus who died just the year before Toby set out on his journey. So both of them had the same illness, and Toby was looking a little bit at his own future, so probably decided in a way to do this massive trip, uh, thanks to all of that.

Speaker 2 34:40

Why, once he died, did you feel you had to finish what he started, which is what you we essentially see you do now in the next book, which is solely your story? What was it after doing was it after doing the book? Was it losing him? What was it that made you feel like this is something I now need to finish?

Speaker 3 34:57

It's a bit of a combination. So I obviously did the book first. I spent a year really focusing on his notes and his story. And I think I'd seen sea kayaking as something which was sort of an extreme sport, probably done by men and like something a little bit kind of scary, all of this. And as I read his notes, I realised that actually it's just it's actually quite a lovely way of connecting with nature. You're very, very close to the water. Um, all sorts of sea creatures sort of come up and see you because you're so quiet. And I thought, well, this actually sounds quite nice. I'd never done any sea kayaking. I had this sort of connection with the water. I didn't not consider myself a nature person, but I also wasn't one of those people that was out up a mountain every weekend. As I say, I had quite a young family. But as I sort of finished writing the book, I thought, actually, I'd really like to go out and do something. And since nobody had completed Toby's adventure in the meantime, which I thought might happen, you know, one of his kayaking friends or whatever, I thought, well, maybe I can finish that adventure as well. Obviously, this is a fairly big step. I'd never been in a sea kayak. I live in Barcelona, not in the UK, where most of the kayaking was going to be based.

Speaker 2 36:13

And did it feel when you set out to complete his one, did it feel like this was now your adventure, or did it still very much feel like a joint one with with your brother?

Speaker 3 36:23

So at the beginning, it was definitely me taking Toby's adventure. And I really felt like that. I felt like I sort of had to excuse myself a little bit, like, you know, oh, you know, I'm not stealing Toby's adventure, but um, whereas later on, particularly when I got to Ireland, so for me, Toby had left me all the cold and wet bits. So this classic brother move, exactly. So it was we'd done like Spain and Portugal and France and all of this, and I got left with Scotland, uh, Ireland, Wales, and a bit of north of England. So in Ireland, it was when I started to feel like it became my journey. Toby had never been there, he his kayak had never been there, so it felt really special when I brought his kayak to Ireland as well. And also that most of the people that were helping me didn't know him, didn't know me, and they were just sort of my contacts. So that's when it became my journey and started feeling like, okay, well, I think I can influence this a bit more.

Speaker 2 37:23

Were there any on the list that you really wanted to go to that you were like, oh, I'm I really actually want to go and explore this area?

Speaker 3 37:31

Well, there definitely there was Shetland that he'd left. Um, and I'll be honest, I didn't even know where Shetland was. I sort of confused it with the Hebrides and things like that. So it was really nice to, you know, first of all, gain an understanding of exactly where I was going, but also to go to these places that I would never have gone to. I mean, Shetland from Spain is a long way and it's quite difficult to get to without Toby's challenge. I don't think I'd ever have gone. And it was just beautiful. What was the biggest gift you think that Toby's left you then with this? I think there are several things. So one is the kayaking community itself, and just sort of introducing me into this. And and one of the, I guess, themes that came out was that it's an it's an older community. It's um most people are sort of in their 60s, some people late 50s, 60s, but up to even 90s, right? And so this was kind of gave me quite a lot of hope for as a middle-aged woman, sort of going, okay, what's what is there in the future? Well, there's a whole load of adventure, it looks like, uh, if you know these people. So that was really fun. And then the other gift I think is that he gave me, without realizing it, a route through grief. And I think when you lose someone, there are obviously there's loads of different advice that people can give you and whatever. And some of it works for you, some of it doesn't. We're all very, it's very personal the way we deal with it. But for me, I think the book, first of all, I spent a year really focusing on his stories. It was like spending an extra year with him, even though it was pretty hard at times. And then going around and sort of celebrating him, presenting the book, and then starting doing kayaking, which I never obviously paddled with Toby. So it made me feel kind of closer to him in a way, doing something that he loved and kind of understanding a little bit more about him and his life through that. And then, of course, discovering this whole kind of world for myself and thinking, well, you know what, I I do want to be outside, and that's a choice. And if I don't make that choice, I'm not going to be outside doing things, and neither of my kids. So it's sort of this, there's lots of different gifts packed into that that uh that I feel like he'd be pleased to know came out of just leaving his notes around and me randomly picking them up.

Speaker 2 39:54

That was this episode's Hidden Hero, the person who has done something incredible in travel to help others. And finishing both a book and a challenge that her brother couldn't is simply the best legacy anyone could ask for. I wish everyone could have a sister like Katie. Do check out her and Toby's book, Moderate Becoming Good Later, and of course her own tale, Thundery at Times, which is out now. I promise you, you will leave being inspired. And just like that, it's nearly the end of the episode.

Wander Woman Of The Month: Juana Manual Gorriti

Speaker 2 40:23

So time for me to reveal my inspiring Wander Woman of the Month. I hope you've enjoyed what you've heard. Please do subscribe so you never miss an episode, and please do leave a review. It means so very much. You can follow me on Instagram at phoebe rsmith, go to my website phoebe-smith.com, where you can sign up for my occasional newsletter, and of course, send me a message. Now, this episode we head to Salta in northern Argentina to meet a little girl who would become one of the greatest storytellers in South America that no one has ever heard of.

Speaker 2 40:59

Against the backdrop of the Andean landscape, characterized by colourful mountains, llama tracks, beating heat, and a sky the colour of the Argentinian flag, Juana Manuela Goriti sits at home. She doesn't know it yet, but her life is about to be pinballed around South America, not because of an urge to travel, but because she has no choice.

Speaker 2 41:25

Born in 1818 into a wealthy family living in Rosario de la Frontera in the province of Salta, at a time when Argentina was violently forming itself through civil wars into a nation after independence. Her father, a soldier and politician, had signed the country's Declaration of Independence two years before her birth. Because of this, he and the entire family found themselves on the wrong side of conflicts, now known as the Argentine Civil Wars.

Speaker 2 41:57

At the age of 13, her family was forced into exile in Bolivia. It was the first of many moves in a lifetime of movement. It was a pivotal moment in her life, a child in exile, longing for a lifetime to return to her homeland. The family settled in Tiragi, Bolivia, and it was here where she met Manuel Isidoro Belsu, then a captain in the Bolivian army. At the age of 15, they married and soon had two daughters.

Speaker 2 42:28

Her husband became the president of Bolivia in 1848 and Juana the first lady. But by then they had long separated and barely spent any time together. But from this position, she saw the political divisions of the continent forming around her, and she recorded it all. Juana began writing in the 1840s in her mid-20s when she had moved to Lima, the coastal capital of Peru.

Speaker 2 42:57

It was here she held her famous tertulias or salons, attended by some of the most important thinkers of the period, and her focus was principally literature and women's right. It also gave space to other women, notably Teresa Gonzalez de Fanning, a journalist who campaigned for the education of women.

Speaker 2 43:18

In 1851, she published her first novel, La Quena. In the book, set in Lima and the Highlands, she wrote about poverty, the oppression of women, identity, love, and political resistance. She wrote about South America from a woman's perspective, not one of battles and victory. But her stories are ultimately about travel.

Speaker 2 43:41

In a biography by Vanessa Mazelas, she wrote, By traveling, Goriti was able to articulate the history and particularities of three countries, Argentina, Bolivia, and Peru. Whether traveling herself or making her fictional characters travel through unexplored regions of these three countries, the author confronts the cultural and geographical boundaries between nations. Her most important journey, however, was about to begin. The return to Argentina.

Speaker 2 44:13

In 1878, she travelled to Buenos Aires from Lima. In La Tierra Natal, the land of my birth, she wrote, During that day I saw, passing in the distance, swift as dreams, familiar places peopled with memories. In Buenos Aires, she continued her successful literary career with more novels and short stories. El Pozo di Yochi, the Yochi Well, is part love story and part gothic horror, as well as offering a thread of resistance about the Argentine government of the day. More outspoken was her newspaper, The Argentina Dawn, in which she published articles about politicians and women's rights. In 1890, she even published a cookbook, Cochina Electica. It gathered recipes from women across the continent.

Speaker 2 45:04

She died two years later in Buenos Aires, aged 74. Her life across three countries perhaps meant she's not remembered particularly in any one of them. But in South America at the time, boundaries and allegiances were fluid. Juana was an unrelenting champion of women's rights, became recognized as Argentina's first female novelist, and was a journalist, the founder of a newspaper and essayist.

Speaker 2 45:32

She wrote about the formation of nations, observing people from all classes and writing about what she saw with respect and beauty while upholding female rights. She spent her life writing, travelled and meeting people. She was a storyteller of the age and from the rarely told perspective of women and about women.

Speaker 2 45:53

She was born in Argentina and died in Argentina, but her writing mapped the region of the time like no one else. And that is why she is, unequivocally, our Wander Woman of the month.

Speaker 2 46:07

That was our incredible Wander Woman of the Month, the traveller whose name is lost in the history books purely because of her gender. I hope you manage to get a copy of La Quena translated available online to get a glimpse of Latin America's tumultuous history from the female perspective.

Speaker 2 46:23

On the next episode of the Wander Woman Podcast, I head to Newfoundland in Canada to discover the trails, tales, and tunes from this remarkable island on the East Coast that's just over a five-hour flight from London. I meet the man whose grandfather was a human wind gauge, officially that was his actual job title, and tap my feet to meet the first lady of the accordion beats. See you next time, Wander Woman Out.

Speaker 2 46:50

The Wander Woman podcast is written and produced by me, Phoebe Smith. The editor and writer of additional material is Daniel Nielson. The logo was designed by John Summerton. A final shout out to all the people I met on my journey and were willing to talk to me. It's because of you that this episode was able to happen at all.